A Break Down About a Former MAGA Insider's Journey: A Conversation with Rich Logis

[00:00:13] Welcome to the Break Down with Brodkorb and Becky, a weekly podcast that breaks down politics, policy, and current affairs. I'm Becky Scherr.

[00:00:19] And I'm Michael Brodkorb.

[00:00:23] Welcome to this special bonus episode of the Break Down with Brodkorb and Becky. Today, I have a truly compelling guest joining us, Rich Logis, the founder of Leaving MAGA. Rich's journey is one of transformation, courage, and a rediscovery of his core beliefs. Rich was once a devoted MAGA supporter,

[00:00:40] he grappled with the myths that sustained the movement. Now he's dedicated his voice to helping others see a different path. I'm honored to have Rich here today to share his powerful story and the mission behind leaving MAGA. I hope you enjoy this interview.

[00:00:55] As our listeners should know by now, and everyone does know, I think, I've endorsed Kamala Harris and Governor Tim Walz as a Republican. That opportunity has led to so many wonderful discussions and chances to meet people. And one of the people that I have been so impressed by,

[00:01:10] I've been on some conference calls with some zoom meetings with, and I had the opportunity to meet in person is Rich Logis. Rich is a former member of MAGA. He was a former member of the Trump, a wing of the Republican party. And I saw him in Pennsylvania a few weeks ago.

[00:01:26] And I made a promise to Rich and I wanted to speak to him. And I hope this is the start of many conversations we have because I think the work that Rich is doing, it transcends this election. It's sure it's important for the next, it's been important for this entire election cycle, but particularly after the election.

[00:01:43] And that's why I wanted to start a conversation before the election. And I hope to have him on a bunch of more times, but Rich, first of all, let me just say, thank you for all that you're doing. Thank you for the message that you're carrying. And thank you for being strong and standing up as someone who has never identified with the MAGA wing of the party.

[00:02:01] Having someone from that wing of the party come out like you have and stand up is simply remarkable. And thank you so much for having the bravery and strength to do this. And I'm excited to have our, my listeners, listeners of this podcast, meet you and have conversations with you and hear some of the discussion because I just think you're doing fantastic work.

[00:02:22] I'm humbled by that. Thank you, Michael, for having me and also for caring so much about our work that we're doing. I know as we get into the election, as we reach the final, what is it now? 96 hours or so. I'm going to, I'm going to give for listeners what I think is a big dose of optimism of what's about to happen, not just on the fifth, but beyond.

[00:02:45] Describing it for our listeners, your journey to MAGA, what now you got involved in the MAGA wing of the Republican party, what aspects of the, that appealed to you and how did it fulfill your sense of purpose or belonging?

[00:02:58] Sure. Thank you. And I think that my entree into MAGA is really crucial for the work we're doing as co-chairs of Republicans for Harris. I'm here in Florida because before Trump, I was neither a Republican nor a Democrat.

[00:03:13] Yes, I was political, but I was ignorant. I voted third party a lot. Sometimes write-ins. I voted for Ralph Nader a few times. He was actually my first presidential vote in 2000 when I lived in New York.

[00:03:26] And so I felt both parties were the same. I thought that they only represented a small sliver of the country. I felt alienated from our political system.

[00:03:35] Trump comes along and yes, he ran as a Republican, but he ran as an actual true outsider, no government, no military. And while I was not completely enamored with this campaign initially, the more he would talk about economic issues, jobs going overseas, communities that were once vibrant, had become stagnant, depressed.

[00:03:56] I started nodding in concurrence more and more. And it took me some time to finally say, okay, I'm going to support Trump as a Republican.

[00:04:06] And early 2016 is when I became a volunteer. I started doing phone banking. I even wrote part of the call script for the campaign. There's a line in the call script that says,

[00:04:17] for anyone who made a call or received a call, let's make history and elect Donald Trump president. So we made history, just not the kind and in hindsight I'd liked.

[00:04:27] And I think this point is important for the final sales pitch, so to speak, we're going to make to undecided voters now, which is that I understand their feelings of disenchantment.

[00:04:38] And it's understandable to feel exhausted from partisanship and rancor. That's how I felt at the time. And I felt that Trump, because he didn't need the job, was going to do it for the right reasons.

[00:04:49] And for those undecided voters, especially Republicans, they're probably having no similar feelings. But if we make this case as we have been, and we just double our efforts in the next several days,

[00:05:02] we juxtapose the candidates of Vice President Kamala and former President Trump. It's very clear who's doing the uniting and who's doing the dividing.

[00:05:13] The fact that you and I have met and are working as Republicans for Harris, that is unprecedented in a major party presidential campaign where the nominee actually invited to speak on her behalf,

[00:05:29] to represent her as members either of the Republican Party or former Republicans who once voted Republican.

[00:05:37] So I became a Republican because of Trump. But it wasn't that I went from I'm against both parties to, let's say, a Reagan or McCain or Bush Republicanism.

[00:05:46] I just went from both parties are the same to let's go MAGA. And so even in MAGA, Michael, we, and it's true now, the Republican Party is not highly regarded.

[00:05:57] It's just considered a little better than the Democratic Party, which represents the existential threat to America because of liberalism.

[00:06:05] So if you hear these, I mentioned these reasons not as a self-defense, but it's for people who have friends and family, especially in MAGA, that there is something appealing about someone new.

[00:06:16] President Obama, he was really someone represented something new, and I'm not comparing them as people and presidents, but the appeal was there, the enticement.

[00:06:26] And I think for many who are looking at their friends and family in MAGA and thinking, why?

[00:06:31] We're going to get to that part of the story for me, but it's because they are so invested emotionally in that community and that MAGA family and friends network that they've built.

[00:06:42] You're in Florida. Describe a little bit your background in terms of 2000.

[00:06:48] You got active with Trump's campaign.

[00:06:51] What about Trump?

[00:06:52] What specifically about Donald Trump was appealing to you?

[00:06:58] So I felt like as someone estranged from our overall two-party system, that what really needed to be done was to obliterate the established political order, right?

[00:07:09] So if someone feels like the system doesn't work for everybody, we could very easily conclude that if the system doesn't work for everybody, let's just take a flamethrower to it.

[00:07:22] And I felt like Trump was very clear in that message.

[00:07:27] And for me, I was 39 years old in 2016, so Make America Great Again was not some kind of nostalgia where we prayed in public schools and we brought our shotguns to the Boy Scouts meetings.

[00:07:42] For me, it was actually very progressive.

[00:07:44] It was very forward-facing.

[00:07:47] And because I looked at him as someone whom I didn't think actually needed the job, I saw him as someone who wanted to do it for the right reasons to make the country a better place.

[00:08:00] And while now I look back and realize just how wrong I was, sure, eight years ago in political dog years is basically a thousand years ago, but if we can try to put ourselves back in that time,

[00:08:13] there are some valid reasons that people had for supporting him, especially given if they were maybe going through some hardships in their life.

[00:08:21] I wasn't.

[00:08:22] I was actually doing very well economically in my life, but I knew people who had experienced lost businesses because of outsourcing, because of jobs going overseas.

[00:08:32] And when he would speak about that, I thought, I know people who were affected by this.

[00:08:39] I know people who were in communities that were once really thriving.

[00:08:44] And then all of a sudden companies sent their jobs and their labor overseas, dependency on other countries, which really we got to see during the pandemic.

[00:08:55] These were actual issues.

[00:08:56] Yeah, there were reprehensible statements that I admit that I looked the other way from.

[00:09:00] Senator McCain's statement, rest in peace, where he mocked the late senators torture as a prisoner of war.

[00:09:09] Okay.

[00:09:10] That was, I believe, in September of 2015.

[00:09:15] Whatever curiosity, Michael, I had about the Trump campaign should have ceased and desisted that day.

[00:09:20] But it didn't because I allowed myself, and I emphasize the allowed because I must take responsibility for my actions and rhetoric.

[00:09:29] I allowed myself to be very quickly influenced into believing that Hillary and the Democrats winning was going to equal indefinite democratic power.

[00:09:41] And I would be rendered completely irrelevant as a citizen of my country.

[00:09:46] So I listened to my fear, and it very much shaped my mindset and the political activist that I became.

[00:09:54] Because I never was even remotely close to an activist.

[00:09:58] All I did was essentially vote.

[00:09:59] Now I was a volunteer.

[00:10:00] I was out talking to people in grocery stores and doctor's appointments and asking them,

[00:10:05] Hey, if you made a decision on how you're going to vote, and people were telling me,

[00:10:10] Yeah, I'm going to vote for Trump.

[00:10:11] I'm going to vote for Trump.

[00:10:11] And I was telling everyone I knew, watch and see, this is going to happen.

[00:10:15] Oh, Rich, I know you want it to happen.

[00:10:17] I don't want you to be disappointed.

[00:10:19] I'm not going to be disappointed.

[00:10:20] It is going to happen.

[00:10:21] Now, a lot of it, Michael, was instinct.

[00:10:24] And that same instinct that I had then is what I have now, Kamala and Tim and the Democratic candidates.

[00:10:31] Data is important.

[00:10:33] It's necessary.

[00:10:34] There are also data trends that show we're going to win.

[00:10:37] But sometimes you just got to go with your gut.

[00:10:40] And my gut is telling me that when all is said and done, while the electoral college might be close-ish,

[00:10:47] I do not believe this is going to be a close election on Tuesday.

[00:10:51] And I think the American people are going to put Donald Trump in the rearview mirror of our country once and for all.

[00:10:56] Rich, I want to put a pin in that because you were very confident in Pennsylvania.

[00:11:01] I just want to say to our listeners, I traveled to Pennsylvania and had an opportunity to meet the vice president.

[00:11:07] And there was a fantastic group of people there.

[00:11:10] Hands down, one of the most amazing events I've ever been with.

[00:11:13] But one of the people I was most interested to meet was you, Rich.

[00:11:18] I wanted to sit down and talk to you because, and part of the reason is, Rich, I'm in Minnesota.

[00:11:24] And we've gotten the opportunity to know each other over the past couple of months on Zoom meetings or calls or, and then face-to-face and now this interview.

[00:11:31] One of the things that I just believe very passionately is talking.

[00:11:35] And once I got to, once I saw, once you came upon my radar screen and I started to see who you were, I think there's a, I think that what you're doing is so unbelievably important.

[00:11:45] Because what you're also doing is you're helping explain it to someone like me.

[00:11:48] Because I, the minute Donald Trump came down that golden escalators, I wasn't a fan of his.

[00:11:57] And I have never traveled in a pro-Trump circle.

[00:11:59] But what's so amazing about the coalition that Kamala Harris and Tim Walls have put together is that people like you are on the same side.

[00:12:07] People who came to these conclusions through different reasons that our political journeys are different.

[00:12:10] But it's so important to me to hear you speak and listen to you speak because you're helping me understand in some ways how the Republican Party got here.

[00:12:21] Because for the last nine years, since he came down that golden escalator, I didn't vote for him in 16 or 20.

[00:12:28] I was doing analysis.

[00:12:30] And so I'd get a lot of phone calls.

[00:12:31] I'm the former deputy chair of the Republican Party in Minnesota.

[00:12:34] Worked on a bunch of campaigns in Minnesota.

[00:12:36] And I'd get phone calls from reporters all the time saying, hey, what's your take on this?

[00:12:40] What's your take on that?

[00:12:41] And I would always disclose at the beginning.

[00:12:43] I said, look, I didn't need to disclose the being.

[00:12:46] I'm not a Trump fan.

[00:12:47] Didn't vote for him in 16 and 20.

[00:12:49] Let me give you my analysis on where things are at.

[00:12:51] You can decide if you take it or not.

[00:12:53] And probably 100% of the time they did because I had the ability to call kind of balls and strikes.

[00:12:58] What's so fascinating is you're providing a perspective that I think is so critically important right now.

[00:13:05] Particularly in the state of Minnesota, where I think the MAGA movement has too much of a foothold inside the Republican Party.

[00:13:14] And I think it's important.

[00:13:15] I hope that this interview will be a splash of cold water in a bunch of people's faces.

[00:13:22] Understand what they're in.

[00:13:23] Because I think your perspective is just so refreshing and insightful.

[00:13:27] And again, so important.

[00:13:29] I'd like to ask you about, was there a specific event that happened that kind of was a moment for clarity that began to unravel your belief in MAGA?

[00:13:40] Sure.

[00:13:40] I like to paraphrase the late American novelist Ernest Hemingway on this point.

[00:13:46] My personal and political epiphany happened gradually and then suddenly all at once.

[00:13:51] Because there were moments that just inevitably led to the commencement of my doubts.

[00:13:58] I knew that Trump was mismanaging the pandemic.

[00:14:03] But in MAGA, if you criticize Trump publicly, you are exiled.

[00:14:09] You're considered a MAGA apostate and a heretic.

[00:14:12] I had many critical conversations about Trump actually in four years.

[00:14:17] Charlottesville was one time.

[00:14:18] And COVID was another.

[00:14:19] But because Joe was an existential threat like Hillary was, even though I had those private, centurious types of conversations about Trump and COVID, nothing publicly ever.

[00:14:31] Because I didn't want to be kicked out of the community.

[00:14:34] You'll be kicked out of the community.

[00:14:35] And if that community is your, for me, it was part of my identity.

[00:14:40] And I mention that point because for those listening who are thinking, man, how do I get my friend's family out of there?

[00:14:47] It's not an easy task, but it does start with understanding what the appeal is.

[00:14:53] There's a place where they're validated and vindicated, respected, and appreciated.

[00:14:57] I was a, after Trump wins, after he won in 16, I was a pundit.

[00:15:02] I wrote for, I had bylines in Fox.

[00:15:04] I had bylines in Real Clear Politics.

[00:15:07] I wrote for a site called World Net Daily, WND.

[00:15:10] And that site is the site that originated the Obama birther conspiracy.

[00:15:16] Okay.

[00:15:17] I wrote dozens of stories, Michael, for that site.

[00:15:19] I would, I was essentially willing to go anywhere as an activist.

[00:15:23] And I'm not going to try to make this a competition, but there's probably no one in the country who supported Trump more than I did.

[00:15:30] Probably many who did it as much, but none more.

[00:15:33] I, I considered myself a Trump nationalist.

[00:15:35] That's what I called myself.

[00:15:36] Forget about Republican and conservative.

[00:15:38] We wanted to get rid of the GOP.

[00:15:40] We wanted a MAGA party.

[00:15:42] So with, uh, as just, I just say that as a side note for people to understand the pressures of not speaking out when you're in the community.

[00:15:50] Trump and the pandemic.

[00:15:52] Trump and the stolen election lies.

[00:15:55] DeSantis.

[00:15:57] DeSantis.

[00:15:58] Inviting anti-vaxxers to speak at his press conferences and COVID conspiracists in the summer of 21 when children's hospitals were overflowing.

[00:16:09] That was the moment there.

[00:16:12] That's really where I put the catalyst was Ron DeSantis in the summer of 21.

[00:16:18] And when that happened, it was like I ran Michael Face first into a brick wall because I thought, I don't understand why Ron DeSantis is doing this.

[00:16:26] People disagree with me on this point and I respect that.

[00:16:28] I thought Ron DeSantis handled the pandemic relatively well in the first year and a half.

[00:16:33] Compared to Trump, he looked like a Nobel warrior.

[00:16:36] But we were getting data changing a lot.

[00:16:39] And I thought, okay, he's an advocate for the public health measures.

[00:16:41] He was trying to keep certain areas open he thought was best, close certain areas.

[00:16:45] I thought he was doing as good a job as he could have.

[00:16:47] Okay, now we know that he wasn't quite honest about it, but all factors considered, I thought that he was doing a decent job.

[00:16:55] All of a sudden, he starts bringing people coming up saying that his pressure is the vaccines change in your RNA.

[00:17:00] I'm thinking, where is this coming from?

[00:17:03] So I did something right after he said that, that sounds so simple, but has proven to be profoundly and positively instrumental in my own political transformation.

[00:17:16] I diversified my news and information sources.

[00:17:20] And when I did that, once I did that, it was a fancy word of philosophy, aperture, which is, it was your broad view of everything.

[00:17:28] It was sealed shut and then it went slowly and slowly, wider and wider.

[00:17:31] Because all I did was consume right-wing media.

[00:17:34] That's all I wrote for.

[00:17:35] It's all I, it's all I followed.

[00:17:37] And I'm not even talking about Fox.

[00:17:39] Fox is considered MSNBC light within MAGA.

[00:17:42] I'm talking about Breitbart.

[00:17:44] That's the site I lived on.

[00:17:45] The sites I wrote for, the Federalist, that's another one.

[00:17:48] So all of a sudden at that time, now I'm expanding my news and info sources.

[00:17:54] I start to delve a little deeper into January 6th.

[00:17:58] Now, I didn't think the election was stolen, Michael.

[00:18:01] And the reason I didn't think that, and I'm going to bring this point to why it's important for Tuesday, is because I knew that there was going to be a massive mobilized turnout against Trump.

[00:18:12] And I was telling all my fellow MAGA Americans, especially here in Florida, don't be shocked if Trump loses.

[00:18:19] And, yeah, I thought we'd win having the benefit of incumbency.

[00:18:23] But we didn't.

[00:18:25] And I didn't think it was fraud whatsoever.

[00:18:27] And, in fact, I told everyone when it finally was called for Joe, I said, let's just take the loss.

[00:18:34] Let's rebuild.

[00:18:35] And let's have an even better comeback.

[00:18:37] So when January 6th happened, I did not support that day.

[00:18:40] But I am embarrassed and ashamed about something on January 6th that I want to mention.

[00:18:45] Because I feel I have to be very transparent about my story.

[00:18:49] What upset me about January 6th was not that police officers were being attacked and I knew that there were going to be injuries and probably deaths.

[00:18:56] What upset me is that I looked at the people, the rioters, and I thought, these people are ruining our chances of a comeback.

[00:19:03] That's what angered me.

[00:19:06] And when there is such a disregard for life, that's the nadir.

[00:19:12] That's the lowest point of dehumanization.

[00:19:16] That's dehumanization.

[00:19:17] The rhetoric that I employed calling people malignant, calling Democrats more dangerous than Nazis.

[00:19:23] This is what I said.

[00:19:24] It's what I wrote.

[00:19:25] It's still in the public record because I own it.

[00:19:28] And I will continue to own it.

[00:19:29] So once I got into January 6th and understanding it more, I thought,

[00:19:33] all these groups that I thought were fringe groups like the Proud Boys, they actually were well-coordinated.

[00:19:38] They had the blessing of the most powerful person in the world.

[00:19:41] I used to be at events, Michael, with Proud Boys.

[00:19:43] I'd looked at these guys and thought, eh, these guys are just hobbyists.

[00:19:47] They're just show people.

[00:19:48] They don't do anything.

[00:19:49] They're innocuous.

[00:19:49] I was wrong.

[00:19:50] And then all of a sudden, I've got Ron DeSantis and I've got January 6th.

[00:19:54] And I'm starting to go through this internecine personal and political battle where I'm questioning my beliefs.

[00:20:02] And I'm thinking, can I really support this?

[00:20:07] And all of a sudden, I would think that.

[00:20:09] But then I would look at a photo from an event at Mar-a-Lago or I'd listen to a speech I gave at a Trump group that I used to go to all the time and sponsored.

[00:20:19] So I went through this month after month where I was just having this tug of war.

[00:20:25] And then there were some other moments.

[00:20:28] Early February, in February of 22, the Republican Party called January 6th legitimate political discourse.

[00:20:33] That was their word.

[00:20:34] And then there was what I consider the last straw, which was the Uvalde school shooting and the GOP's feigned helplessness over preventable gun-related death, trauma, and injuries.

[00:20:52] And I like to mention contextually in this point, as a Floridian, I carry a firearm legally with a permit every day.

[00:20:59] I am a believer in responsible firearm ownership.

[00:21:02] I am no gun grabber.

[00:21:04] I am as much a Second Amendment person, even though I know that people won't hear this statement of what I say about Uvalde.

[00:21:11] But I am.

[00:21:12] And the Republican Party gave their usual deflective answers about what happened with Uvalde.

[00:21:18] That was in May.

[00:21:19] It was short in May of 22.

[00:21:21] It was shortly, Michael, after that where I privately left MACA.

[00:21:25] I told my wife.

[00:21:26] I told a few others.

[00:21:28] But something was nagging at me.

[00:21:30] And I thought, that's not enough.

[00:21:31] I was so unapologetic and public in my support for Trump.

[00:21:37] I needed to be public and unapologetic in renouncing MACA.

[00:21:43] And on August 30th, 2022, I published an article in which I said, I supported all of this.

[00:21:50] I supported Trump and DeSantis and MACA candidates.

[00:21:53] I acknowledged my mistake.

[00:21:55] I was wrong.

[00:21:56] And I want to say, I'm sorry.

[00:21:59] And if you can imagine the visual, I've got my hand over the mouse.

[00:22:03] The little arrow is on the publish button.

[00:22:05] And on one hand, I'm exhilarated.

[00:22:07] But on the other hand, there's the little devil saying, Rich, if you do this, that's it.

[00:22:12] You're walking away from a community that's all you've known for years.

[00:22:16] You become close to that community, Michael, that sometimes took precedence over my own blood family.

[00:22:23] But I pressed publish.

[00:22:24] And the moment I did it, I knew it was the correct decision.

[00:22:27] But here's perhaps the craziest part of this story.

[00:22:31] I didn't think anybody would care.

[00:22:34] The moment it published, messages come in.

[00:22:38] Rich, you talk to my mother.

[00:22:40] Rich, can you talk to my son?

[00:22:42] Rich, my best friend and I of 40 years haven't spoken since 2016.

[00:22:47] What do I do?

[00:22:49] I was completely oblivious to all of this.

[00:22:53] And it dawned on me very quickly.

[00:22:56] I had a hand in this.

[00:22:59] Yeah, okay, one man, one vote, one person.

[00:23:02] People tell me I'm too hard on myself.

[00:23:04] Maybe I am, but it served to motivate me because I still, one man or not, I still enabled it.

[00:23:13] And I'm thinking, and I spent the next year just disseminating this message.

[00:23:19] I was, yeah, I was in a crossroads.

[00:23:22] I like to use the cinematic comparison I like to use is at the end of the Truman Show.

[00:23:28] When Jim Carrey realizes he's in that controlled, safe environment.

[00:23:31] But then he has a choice to walk through that dangerous but free door.

[00:23:35] And he walks through the door.

[00:23:36] For me, that was leaving MAGA.

[00:23:37] I won't sugarcoat that it's hard to leave.

[00:23:41] But I did it on an individual basis.

[00:23:45] And I created Leaving MAGA as an organization, which just so everyone knows, is not affiliated

[00:23:51] with any campaign or party.

[00:23:54] Everything I do is in my personal capacity.

[00:23:57] I started it because I want our Leaving MAGA community to be an exit ramp for people to

[00:24:03] leave MAGA.

[00:24:04] I am of the belief that there are many who have actually quietly left.

[00:24:08] I think there are some in the nascent stages of doubt.

[00:24:11] And I think after we went on Tuesday, there are going to be even more who are going to start

[00:24:15] asking themselves, should I really support this anymore?

[00:24:19] But it's going to take time and patience on our part to get them to leave.

[00:24:25] But if they've got a place to go, they've got more incentive.

[00:24:29] Without a place to go, even the ones who know that they should leave probably won't because

[00:24:34] our species needs, it's not a want.

[00:24:36] We need a communal existence.

[00:24:39] And that was an idea of Leaving MAGA that happened completely accidentally.

[00:24:43] I could lie to all the viewers, all the listeners and say, I had a two-year game plan,

[00:24:47] Michael, let me tell you, it's worked splendidly.

[00:24:50] No, I had no game plan.

[00:24:52] I had, I'm out of MAGA, what the hell do I do right now?

[00:24:54] That's essentially what happened.

[00:24:56] But because I kept telling this story, I just found more and more people, they were expressing

[00:25:01] their own desperation to me.

[00:25:03] And I thought, I've got to keep speaking up publicly about this.

[00:25:07] More power to you, brother.

[00:25:09] I got to just tell you something.

[00:25:10] As you were talking, this is probably, I've been doing this podcast for a couple of years.

[00:25:14] This is probably going to be the most important episode that I've done because I think it's

[00:25:19] so critically important that Becky and I share informed perspectives from a variety of standpoints.

[00:25:28] And my goodness, you're informed.

[00:25:30] And I am, as you're speaking, I'm just soaking it all in because it's so important that people

[00:25:36] hear this.

[00:25:36] And it's so important that these discussions happen and we get an understanding of how we

[00:25:40] got to this point.

[00:25:41] One thing you mentioned that I wanted to share just a couple of points.

[00:25:44] I'm, you talked about getting your information from one source and I used to work more,

[00:25:49] I used to work in opposition research.

[00:25:51] So I'm used to getting, finding stuff on Democrats and other stuff like that years and years ago.

[00:25:55] So I built into my, I guess I was fortunate from that standpoint that I'm used to getting

[00:25:59] my information from a variety of sources.

[00:26:02] I have a pretty consistent pattern of watching CNN, MSNBC, Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Fox rotating through.

[00:26:09] I get my information sort of from a variety of sources.

[00:26:13] One thing I want to ask you about is the power of myths in situations, the power of myths

[00:26:17] in situations.

[00:26:18] You mentioned a lot of what you're discussing is a lot of misinformation.

[00:26:22] You're discussing a lot of misinformation and myths and misinformation are so prevalent

[00:26:28] right now.

[00:26:29] You talked a little bit about COVID.

[00:26:31] You talked a little bit about January 6th.

[00:26:39] Information that were most impactful and why.

[00:26:44] Sure.

[00:26:44] And all of these myths were ones that I, were those I believed.

[00:26:48] And I would say that all of them, whether we're talking about Democrats or importing

[00:26:58] foreigners to, to get more voters to, to seize power permanently, or there are, my children

[00:27:05] are being indoctrinated into becoming Marxist communists in the public schools, or the Democrats

[00:27:11] are going to disarmy the first chance they get.

[00:27:14] All of those mythologies fall under the aegis of what the primary enemy of MAGA and the right

[00:27:22] wing is, which is liberalism.

[00:27:24] It's not an individual.

[00:27:26] Now, there are some individuals who have been on the receiving end of the, of ire that has

[00:27:33] been subhumingly dehumanizing.

[00:27:37] Former President Obama, Speaker Merida Pelosi, Hillary, you know, Kamala's, I knew she was

[00:27:43] going to get it.

[00:27:44] She's been experiencing it.

[00:27:46] So yeah, there are some individuals who are the focus, but it's really this belief that

[00:27:52] liberalism erodes the goodness of our country.

[00:27:55] And liberalism is no miracle election or it's contradictory.

[00:27:58] It's got its good and bad, like every, right?

[00:28:01] Like every, even a good ism, it's capitalism.

[00:28:03] I'm a capitalist.

[00:28:04] Not everything's good about capitalism.

[00:28:05] And that's a different, completely different struggle that we're going to have, I think

[00:28:09] after November.

[00:28:10] Although again, Vice President Harris is addressing capitalist issues, right?

[00:28:14] Like housing and the sandwich generation caring for kids and parents.

[00:28:17] But I think those mids about liberal media and the government is evil.

[00:28:27] What's what I want to stress to those who have friends and family in MAGA is that while I

[00:28:34] won't defend anyone's ignorance, including my own ignorance that I once had, we are all

[00:28:40] susceptible to being influenced.

[00:28:43] And there is something about these MAGA and right-wing mythologies that once they latch on,

[00:28:48] it becomes easy to become inculcated into this way of thinking because a lot of these mythologies,

[00:28:53] they prey upon our natural fears and concerns.

[00:28:59] Costs of living is always going to be a concern for most Americans throughout the duration of

[00:29:03] their lives.

[00:29:04] Our futures, our safety and security, wanting good schools, good education.

[00:29:07] We feel this way.

[00:29:09] Now, I don't think the Democratic Party's approach is always perfect because we're humans and we're

[00:29:13] flawed, but they don't talk about these issues in such a way where they portray them as

[00:29:20] predatory.

[00:29:21] That's what has happened with the Republican Party in MAGA is that they have exploited and

[00:29:26] manipulated people into believing that liberalism is the reason solely for all of their problems

[00:29:34] in their lives or what their perceived problems are.

[00:29:36] So I'm not dismissing that people have real problems.

[00:29:39] We do.

[00:29:40] But instead of actual compromise like Vice President Harris is trying to, not trying, has

[00:29:47] done and will do as president because she is a woman of her word.

[00:29:50] I just think that once these mythologies start to slowly seep into the psyche, it's not impossible,

[00:29:59] but it becomes hard to reverse them because they are trying to leverage a lot of those fears

[00:30:07] that we have.

[00:30:09] And if we're afraid of something, it makes it easier to believe that there has to be some

[00:30:18] kind of shadowy, phantasmic figure behind a tree.

[00:30:22] To paraphrase Nathaniel Harkthorne, the writer.

[00:30:24] There's some kind of devilish enemy, some liberal, devilish liberal behind a tree somewhere who's

[00:30:32] trying to do this to my life or my livelihood or my family.

[00:30:36] And because we are all susceptible to this, it's why these mythologies that so often sound

[00:30:43] absurd and outlandish, the absurdity and outlandishness disguise the danger of them.

[00:30:49] And when we do an accounting of the last 10 years of American political life, it's, there's

[00:31:00] going to be billions of words penned and spoken about what's happened.

[00:31:04] And I think that the primary part of what's going to be written about is look at all of

[00:31:10] these mythologies that were very effective, but turned out to be pretty much inaccurate.

[00:31:14] And I was a believer in pretty much Michael, all of them.

[00:31:20] We're coming up to an election in a few days.

[00:31:22] And one of the biggest myths, one of the biggest growing mythologies inside the MAGA movement

[00:31:28] and sadly inside the Republican party is election denialism.

[00:31:32] It's denying the outcome of elections.

[00:31:34] It's misinformation.

[00:31:35] It's doubting elections.

[00:31:37] What was on your radar screen coming into Tuesday?

[00:31:39] What are you seeing?

[00:31:40] And what are some concerns that you have coming into election day about the ability of Trump

[00:31:46] supporters and the MAGA movement to accept the results of the election either way?

[00:31:53] Let me say, Michael, and I'm not suggesting that you were saying this just to be clear.

[00:32:00] I think a lot of people who are left-leaning give Donald Trump way too much credit as some

[00:32:05] kind of genius propagandist.

[00:32:07] Okay.

[00:32:08] As I said at my vignette that aired at the DNC on night one, Trump's toxic superpower is lying.

[00:32:17] I would say right behind that are his very clearly, clearly honed skills of absurdity and

[00:32:25] outlandishness.

[00:32:27] And I don't think that there's any reverse psychology here.

[00:32:31] I don't think Trump sits around and says, let's just act desperate.

[00:32:34] So everyone feels like they don't need to vote and we're going to come out and win again

[00:32:38] in a surprise victory.

[00:32:40] The Republican Party and Trump give no indication publicly that they actually expect to win on

[00:32:45] Tuesday.

[00:32:46] They also talk a lot about, the Republican Party talks a lot about how there are groups

[00:32:52] who have traditionally voted Democratic in large numbers are just, there's mass exodus

[00:32:59] coming over to the Republican Party.

[00:33:01] If all of that were actually true, there would not be all of this talk of, it's going to

[00:33:07] be rigged.

[00:33:08] And if we lose this state, it's rigged.

[00:33:10] And they're only going to win if they cheat.

[00:33:12] And if Jesus Christ came down from the sky in California, California would go for Trump.

[00:33:18] They know that all of this is a lie, but this is how they are just continuing what they started

[00:33:25] in 16 and in 20.

[00:33:29] And it's all designed to create doubt amongst voters to either stay home or a third party

[00:33:38] candidate or maybe a Hail Mary and some will vote Trump and say, if it's going to be rigged,

[00:33:43] I might as well support him.

[00:33:44] And maybe he doesn't lose by as much of a margin.

[00:33:46] So I don't think for him, there's any, there's, his plan is to just simply lie.

[00:33:53] But I don't believe that Donald Trump thinks he's going to win on Tuesday.

[00:33:56] And the way that he wins is by as small a turnout as possible.

[00:34:01] So election denialism is not espoused by a party who actually has confidence in their

[00:34:08] political product.

[00:34:09] The Republican party knows that their political offering is favored by dwindling by the day

[00:34:17] number of Americans.

[00:34:18] And this is why I do not believe the Republican party can be rebuilt because rebuilding suggests

[00:34:25] that there's some foundation or some structure that can be built or it could be somehow we can

[00:34:33] use it as the, as a skeleton.

[00:34:35] There is no rebuilding.

[00:34:37] There has to be built anew.

[00:34:39] That's why the party has to be mercy killed because there is nothing to rebuild.

[00:34:43] The party is going to be in ashes in the next 96 hours.

[00:34:47] And then it's going to be the responsible people who are then going to have to take the

[00:34:52] reins or fight to take the reins really to start to build something new.

[00:34:57] And what a new Republican party could look like is something I'm excited about because

[00:35:01] even if I decided to stay as I am now a registered independent, the entrepreneur in me would like

[00:35:08] to have a hand in rebuilding a new GOP.

[00:35:12] And it could be a GOP that's focused on character and integrity and actually making a case based

[00:35:20] on basic, well-established facts instead of ad infinitum lies.

[00:35:27] The kind of party that even the demo, you know this well too, Michael, we don't talk to Democrats at events.

[00:35:34] They all tell me, yeah, Rich, we need a better two-party system.

[00:35:38] Correct.

[00:35:38] Because Democratic voters don't, they don't worship the Democratic party in some kind of

[00:35:43] idolatry, with some kind of idolatry.

[00:35:46] There's, you know, Kamala and Joe are not, they're not worshipped as demigods.

[00:35:52] That's different with Trump because he's the leader of that community.

[00:35:55] So I think the denialism is again, just more evidence to me that it's, they know that what

[00:36:01] I think is going to be a resounding defeat is imminent.

[00:36:04] Here's the concern I have coming into next week is that, and this has been the pattern

[00:36:09] with Trump and a lot of his supporters, is that he can get them amped up.

[00:36:14] He can get them wound up.

[00:36:15] They're setting the expectation.

[00:36:17] They're setting the expectation that the only way they can lose is they can lose as there's

[00:36:21] fraud.

[00:36:21] So describe to me what happens if Trump loses next week, where does all that emotion and

[00:36:28] that frustration and that angst that he's built inside the MAGA movement go when election

[00:36:33] results, if they go that way?

[00:36:35] And again, it's a flip of a coin, but if it goes that way, where does all that pent up

[00:36:41] frustration and energy that he's been stoking over the last few months, where does it go?

[00:36:47] So I've been asked a lot recently about potential political violence, and I see a good news,

[00:36:54] bad news answer.

[00:36:55] The good news is I don't believe that most in MAGA would commit violence, but I do think

[00:37:02] that January 6th showed that you actually only need a handful of people to create anarchy.

[00:37:08] I do think that there is a legitimate concern for violence, and I don't think it's just Washington,

[00:37:15] D.C.

[00:37:15] I think it's state capitals.

[00:37:17] I think that's the...

[00:37:18] So that unfortunately, that's the...

[00:37:20] Yeah, that's the devolution, the reverse evolution of this, that it's potentially at state

[00:37:26] capitals.

[00:37:27] And I think that there are some who may bring themselves to violence for quotes too.

[00:37:34] I also think...

[00:37:35] So that's the good news, bad news, is I don't think there are...

[00:37:39] I think there are very few, but I think those few can wreak a lot of havoc.

[00:37:45] There's another good news answer though that I think, or at least I'm hoping for and I'm

[00:37:50] wagering that this is true, and it's one of the reasons we started leaving MAGA as an org,

[00:37:55] is I think a lot of people, when Trump loses again, are going to say,

[00:38:00] I'm out.

[00:38:01] Now, if being on the losing side is what prompts them to at least start to even slightly question

[00:38:08] their support, I'll take it.

[00:38:11] Because all we need, Michael, is just an opening to show someone that if they leave, they're not

[00:38:18] going to be judged by us.

[00:38:19] We're not going to ostracize them.

[00:38:21] We want to welcome them back into our lives, into the democratic fold.

[00:38:25] First and foremost, Trump has to be stopped for the country and our future.

[00:38:31] Because a second presidency is going to irreparably damage our democracy.

[00:38:35] And the problem with that statement is, I don't know what that looks like because there's

[00:38:39] never been a country like America in the history of the world.

[00:38:41] So we can't look to another nation, past or present, and ask, what did they do when their

[00:38:46] democracy was irreversibly harmed?

[00:38:49] In a lot of ways, yes, we have our alliances and they need to be strengthened all the time.

[00:38:53] But this experiment of self-government is really on us to figure it out.

[00:38:57] And it always has been since the moment we were founded, from day one.

[00:39:01] So I think the good news of this is that, yes, we're going to have a resounding victory, but we need it to be for the country.

[00:39:09] But I would add to that as another good reason, very important reason going forward, is that another defeat is going to create some pathway to find reconciliation with MAGA Americans.

[00:39:22] I mentioned that when we had a chance to meet the VP in Pennsylvania, and I said, Madam President, after we're victorious next month, I would like to try to help lead a reconciliation with MAGA and the country.

[00:39:36] And she was quiet for a few seconds.

[00:39:38] I think I may have, she was a little taken aback, but I think in a positive way, because that was probably the least likely statement she was expecting to hear all day.

[00:39:46] She was much more likely to hear a thank you or an insult than here's this guy saying, let's reconcile with MAGA.

[00:39:52] And she just, she paused and she looked at me and she said, I'd like that.

[00:39:56] So right after we win, we're sitting right into motion reconciliation.

[00:40:01] But here's for MAGA Americans, Michael, this is why we have to win also because, or why we have to win and not they.

[00:40:11] Because for those who are having doubts, nothing erased doubts like victory.

[00:40:17] The work of leaving MAGA will be harder.

[00:40:19] The work of democracy will be harder with another Trump presidency.

[00:40:24] So yes, I have given a lot of thought to this, but instead of wallowing in that, I've done what you've been doing.

[00:40:30] Just, just working and working and we can sweep after November 5th.

[00:40:34] That's right.

[00:40:35] I want to be respectful of your time.

[00:40:36] I have one last question and then I hope to have you back.

[00:40:39] As I said to you in many times, the conversations you are timely during the election and even more,

[00:40:45] after, what is your message to doubters?

[00:40:48] What advice would you give to people who are conflicted right now with their MAGA allegiances and uncertain about leaving?

[00:40:55] What would be your message to them?

[00:40:57] I understand that they had, like I did, good and valid reasons that they genuinely believed put them on the right side.

[00:41:08] That what they were doing was for the good of the country.

[00:41:11] And I don't want them to feel that they have to stay somewhere when deep down they might be feeling that it doesn't reflect who they are anymore.

[00:41:24] Because I understand how hard it is to really exit and walk away from a community that one is so invested in.

[00:41:32] But I want them to know that it's okay to do it.

[00:41:35] And that while it might be challenging and difficult, the feeling of liberation is much stronger than the feeling of staying somewhere you shouldn't.

[00:41:49] Because there's really, we have to compare and contrast the pain of regret versus the joy of emancipating yourself from this.

[00:42:00] And regret is painful.

[00:42:03] But that emancipation that I experienced, not for a singular second have I ever regretted it.

[00:42:09] And there's one other mythology that's important to this answer, Michael, I wanted to mention.

[00:42:16] One of the mythologies of being in the MAGA community that's pervasive all across it is rugged individualism.

[00:42:23] Okay, MAGA is not a rugged individualistic environment.

[00:42:26] It is wholly conformist.

[00:42:29] When you leave MAGA, you are going to reconcile with your friends and family.

[00:42:34] You're going to regain those relationships that were lost.

[00:42:37] I promise for those who leave and take responsibility, because that's important.

[00:42:42] You have to do that.

[00:42:43] Your friends and family will welcome you.

[00:42:46] But then you will actually reclaim your individuality.

[00:42:49] You will reclaim your personhood and your being and your identity.

[00:42:54] And we're going to welcome you.

[00:42:56] Because whether we had disagreed vehemently in the past or not, you're a fellow American.

[00:43:02] You're a fellow human being.

[00:43:03] And I think that the one, we don't have a purity test at Weaving MAGA, but we do have one non-negotiable mandate.

[00:43:11] You've got to take accountability for your past actions and rhetoric.

[00:43:15] Because being in MAGA, again, let's just be candid.

[00:43:19] As I was, we were culpable in amplifying some really reprehensible actions and statements.

[00:43:27] But I think that Americans are a forgiving and graceful people.

[00:43:32] And because we're forgiving and graceful, I think that is inextricably linked to how you and I have met and Republicans for Harris.

[00:43:40] American progress has been uneven.

[00:43:42] But across our history, unlikely but necessary alliances are how we have moved forward.

[00:43:48] And it is instilled in us as a people that when we have been on the precipice of a crisis, we have chosen correctly.

[00:43:57] And we're at that precipice now.

[00:43:59] And it's why we're going to choose correctly again.

[00:44:02] And I'm not saying people in MAGA are fake Americans.

[00:44:06] But you don't have to stay because you feel like you have nowhere else to go.

[00:44:12] You do have places to go.

[00:44:13] You have a support group with us when leaving MAGA.

[00:44:17] Your friends and family will welcome you back when you say, I'm sorry.

[00:44:22] I want to have our relationship like we did before Trump and MAGA.

[00:44:25] And it's going to be beautiful to witness all of this.

[00:44:29] And we're going to be able to finally move the country forward and start to actually get people into positions of power and lawmaking.

[00:44:37] We're going to actually look to solve our problems and compromise and come up with intelligent, innovative solutions.

[00:44:44] So I am more optimistic now.

[00:44:47] And I've been optimistic for a while.

[00:44:50] I am more optimistic right now.

[00:44:51] But everyone out there, do not construe what I'm saying is reason not to vote.

[00:44:55] Get to vote.gov.

[00:44:56] Check your registration.

[00:44:58] Depending on where you live, you can still get registered.

[00:45:00] As former President Obama said, don't boo.

[00:45:03] Vote.

[00:45:04] If you're not sure what to do, Michael will help you.

[00:45:07] I'll help you.

[00:45:07] Visit us at leavingmaga.org.

[00:45:10] You get in touch with me.

[00:45:11] You get in touch with Michael.

[00:45:12] Don't stay home.

[00:45:13] Get in the game.

[00:45:15] Democracy is not a spectator sport.

[00:45:17] You've got to be in the arena.

[00:45:19] Rich, I want to thank you so much for being here.

[00:45:21] You are a patriot.

[00:45:23] You are a great American.

[00:45:24] And you are a defender of democracy.

[00:45:26] And you are hands down one of the most important people and influential people I've met this election cycle.

[00:45:32] It has been a pleasure to get to know you.

[00:45:34] It's been an honor to talk to you today.

[00:45:36] And I cannot wait to have you back after the election to talk about this rebuilding effort and talk about where we are after the election.

[00:45:43] Thank you for everything that you're doing.

[00:45:45] It's my pleasure.

[00:45:46] Thank you, Michael, for having me.

[00:45:47] Be strong.

[00:45:49] Take care.

[00:45:50] Go vote.

[00:45:51] Thank you for listening to this bonus episode of The Breakdown with Broadcom and Becky.

[00:45:57] Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or the platform where you listen.

[00:46:04] You can also leave us a review or give us a shout out on our website or across all social media platforms at at BBBreakPod.

[00:46:12] The Breakdown with Broadcom and Becky will return next week.

[00:46:15] Thank you for listening.

[00:46:16] Thank you.