A break down about polls, messaging, and the final days of the election

[00:00:12] Welcome to The Break Down with Brodkorb and Becky, a weekly podcast that breaks down politics, policy, and current affairs. I'm Becky Scherr.

[00:00:19] And I'm Michael Brodkorb.

[00:00:20] We are in the final stretch here, just five days out from the election, so there is a ton to break down, and we are happy to get to it. Today, we are joined by two of our partisan panelists, John Rouleau and Julius Hernandez. Julius serves as the Director of Advocacy for the Institute of Digital Humanity.

[00:00:35] He has been heavily involved in DFL politics, working on recess from the Minneapolis City Council, State Legislature, and Congress.

[00:00:43] John is the Executive Director of the Minnesota Jobs Coalition and has long been active in Republican politics and campaigning.

[00:00:49] We are going to start with one of my favorite topics, polls, and what they are saying in the final days leading up to November 5th.

[00:00:55] We will break down some closing arguments with Harris' recent town hall and speech last night at the Ellipse, and Trump's recent Madison Square Garden event, and all the reactions and chaos that came from those events.

[00:01:07] Then we will discuss the conversation being had in the political world about a potential double standard when it comes to coverage and perception of these two candidates.

[00:01:14] We will discuss some comments from Governor Nikki Haley and her thoughts on the Trump campaign's efforts involving women.

[00:01:20] We will end by hitting on Halloween football and some mean tweets.

[00:01:23] Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show.

[00:01:27] We are very excited to welcome you guys here today.

[00:01:30] It is officially two years since the first episode of our podcast.

[00:01:36] So welcome.

[00:01:38] It's great to be here.

[00:01:39] I'm very appreciative, Becky.

[00:01:41] I know you weren't just from, but I wanted to jump in and say how excited I am to be doing this for the past two years.

[00:01:46] And man, things have changed.

[00:01:48] They've evolved.

[00:01:49] We started out with a different name and a different kind of setup, and I like where we've gotten.

[00:01:55] I really like where we've gotten.

[00:01:57] And Becky, just let me just say at the onset, I'm so appreciative of this opportunity to have with you to do this, have these discussions.

[00:02:03] You have grounded my political compass over the last two years.

[00:02:06] You've given me nearly two years of just fantastic debates with wonderful guests, including the people we have today.

[00:02:13] I'm so appreciative of every time I get to do this.

[00:02:15] I'm thankful for your friendship and the opportunity to do this podcast with you.

[00:02:19] It's really been one of the most life-changing experiences, and I'm so thankful.

[00:02:24] Right back at you.

[00:02:25] I think it's been really enlightening and helping open my eyes to all sorts of conversations that can be had at a decent, respectful level.

[00:02:34] And with folks that we agree with and disagree with, and you've really crushed it on nailing the technology side of things, getting awesome guests, and allowing us to have conversations with folks that probably would not have had the opportunity to interact with otherwise.

[00:02:49] Yes, and I think today is a perfect episode.

[00:02:51] John's been out a bunch of times, and John and I don't agree on everything, but he is so wicked smart.

[00:02:55] And his analysis and his commentary is insightful.

[00:02:58] I've learned a lot from listening to him.

[00:03:00] He's helped shape my political lens and how I discuss this race, particularly from the partisan side, from the Republican side.

[00:03:07] And Julius has just a fresh perspective and energy.

[00:03:11] And I'm so appreciative to have this podcast with you, Becky, because we get to talk to smart people like this, and I get to listen to smart people like you, too.

[00:03:18] So let's kick it off.

[00:03:20] All right.

[00:03:20] We are going to get right into it.

[00:03:22] So there are two recent polls that have come out here in Minnesota, one from MinnPost and one from KSTP jointly with SurveyUSA.

[00:03:31] And let's start with MinnPost, and then we'll get into the other one.

[00:03:34] But these two polls paint a very different picture of what's going on in the presidential race and I think kind of show that nobody really knows.

[00:03:43] And polls are polls, and you can't always trust them.

[00:03:45] But let's start with MinnPost.

[00:03:47] It has Harris up just three at 48 over 45, just a slight change from their poll that they did last month.

[00:03:54] And going to – I'm just going to compare and contrast these two.

[00:03:58] So the KSTP poll has Harris up eight at 51.43.

[00:04:04] We've been talking a lot that this is a flip of a coin.

[00:04:07] Any day it could be either one of these two come up on top.

[00:04:10] Do we think it's a smattering there of what's the take?

[00:04:13] Anybody think that it really is potentially an eight-point race here in Minnesota?

[00:04:17] John shook his head no, and I said yes.

[00:04:20] Ah, interesting.

[00:04:21] So there you go.

[00:04:22] So Julius, you think that Harris could win by as much as eight?

[00:04:24] Yeah.

[00:04:25] I'm always hesitant to say that I don't trust polls because I actually generally do.

[00:04:30] And I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that after 2016, they actually became a lot more accurate versus inaccurate.

[00:04:36] I just don't see Trump coming in within 45% to Joe Biden, who is uniquely not a great candidate, even on our side.

[00:04:44] He lost by more than three – or he lost to Joe Biden, I think, by more than three last time.

[00:04:50] And I just – I don't know how – I don't know how much I view this as like an accuracy.

[00:04:57] From an accuracy standpoint, I actually think it's probably closer to 8% than it is to this mid-poll one that says 3%, to be quite frank.

[00:05:04] Yeah.

[00:05:05] I do think – one thing I do want to note here when we look at some of the cross tabs that does in the KSTP say there were 42% Dems, which is 7% more than the GOP voters that they talk to, and only 20% independence.

[00:05:18] And independence is somewhere where Trump has notably in other races really come out on top.

[00:05:23] So that could be telling, could not be.

[00:05:26] But Michael, when we were chatting about this a little bit last night, you shared a tweet where it shows Harris' ceiling is far different than Trump's ceiling.

[00:05:36] You want to elaborate a little bit on that?

[00:05:37] Yeah, I think that there's – I think Trump – the cake is baked with Trump in Minnesota.

[00:05:41] I think nationally the highest he's ever gotten was 46.8%.

[00:05:45] I believe that Harris and Walls are going to win this state comfortably.

[00:05:49] I don't think it's going to be – I don't think it's three.

[00:05:51] I don't know if it's eight.

[00:05:53] I put it closer around the five-ish range.

[00:05:56] That's where I think it probably will end up being.

[00:05:59] But Harris and Walls are going to win Minnesota.

[00:06:01] Trump is not going to win this state.

[00:06:03] And so I look at the poll trends and where they're going, and I think both the MinnPost and the KSTP polls show, I think, show comfortably that Harris is in the lead.

[00:06:14] There's not been one poll that's come out this election cycle that shows Trump winning in this state.

[00:06:18] And the reality is we get closer to the election, which we're just now six days away.

[00:06:23] I don't believe there's any indication that Trump is going to win Minnesota.

[00:06:27] John, I would guess you probably see, analyze, have access to more polls than all of us combined maybe.

[00:06:34] And I'm not asking you to divulge any confidential information.

[00:06:38] But what's your vibe and what you're doing for your job and the conversations you're having?

[00:06:42] Do you – leaning one way or another when it comes to these polls?

[00:06:47] We have so many data points that we look at when we're looking at where an election is going.

[00:06:52] We've got early vote that you can look at.

[00:06:54] There's polling that you can look at.

[00:06:55] There's public polling that you can look at.

[00:06:57] There's aggregators modeling and kind of the data that you use internally.

[00:07:03] And I think it's important to understand the purposes and limitations of all of those whenever we're looking at a poll.

[00:07:11] Public polls, I think, use a lot of times different methodologies than a lot of the internal polls.

[00:07:18] And I haven't dug in too far on what this looks like.

[00:07:21] But without getting too far in the weeds, you've got a lot of different choices on how you create your sample.

[00:07:27] And we're seeing this certainly at a national level with as many surveys are being released.

[00:07:33] And people are trying to figure out why the polls were wrong in 2016.

[00:07:38] Why were they wrong in 2020?

[00:07:41] A little bit more accurate in 2022.

[00:07:45] But you are in this environment where it's really hard to do polling right now.

[00:07:51] Think about how often you're willing to answer an unknown phone call.

[00:07:56] How many links you're willing to click when you get a text message.

[00:08:01] So surveys have just gotten harder to do.

[00:08:04] And for a public survey like MinPost or KSTP, their job is to get something out, educate the electorate a little bit about what's going on.

[00:08:15] But the stakes are very low for them.

[00:08:17] If they put this survey out and it's incorrect, right?

[00:08:20] Maybe the survey ends up with a little bit of egg on its face and you get some mean tweets on Twitter or something.

[00:08:26] But the internal surveys, you're making million, two million dollar decisions on those.

[00:08:33] If you're a congressional campaign, you're trying to figure out what ads am I going to run?

[00:08:37] If you're a presidential campaign, you're making decisions that are going to cost you tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars.

[00:08:43] So the stakes are a lot higher in ensuring that you get a motor sample that looks accurate in order to be able to make those decisions.

[00:08:52] If you're deciding if you're going to go to a state or not go to a state.

[00:08:56] But I think looking at these surveys, they look a little bit different than the things that I'm seeing.

[00:09:01] And a lot of that comes down to the composition of the electorate that they're looking at.

[00:09:06] One thing not to go cross tab diving, because I think that's really a bad way to go through looking at polls.

[00:09:12] But the KSTP poll looks a little bit too democratic to me.

[00:09:16] It looks a little bit too educated to me to be reflective of a presidential election year in Minnesota.

[00:09:21] One thing that I'm confident in predicting is that Minnesota will continue to have incredibly high voter turnout.

[00:09:28] So the fact that when they were going through their poll, I think what they excluded like 17% of registered voters from the survey.

[00:09:38] In order to get to that likely voter screen, I think that's probably a little bit on the turnout projections that they had were a little bit rosy for the Democrats.

[00:09:46] So no, I don't think it's eight points.

[00:09:48] Three sounds a little bit rosy for Trump to me as well.

[00:09:51] And I think what I'm watching is it in that four, five, six range.

[00:09:55] And I disagree with the idea that there's this hard ceiling for Donald Trump.

[00:10:00] I think Republicans in Minnesota generally, and I've talked about it before, they have kind of a high floor and then a relatively low ceiling.

[00:10:07] But when we've looked at that, Donald Trump burst through what we had thought the ceiling was in Minnesota for a Republican.

[00:10:15] It's very often it's in that 45% range for a Republican.

[00:10:20] Trump did a little bit better in 2020.

[00:10:22] Yeah, I think trying to make predictions about hard ceilings is a risky game this far.

[00:10:28] Yep.

[00:10:29] When you're dealing with something as unpredictable as an election.

[00:10:33] I like the inside baseball there and the insights of what we look for and the difference between some of these public polls and what campaigns look for is interesting and not something we've really dived into before.

[00:10:42] So I appreciate you sharing that.

[00:10:44] One thing that I did that caught my eye is in the MinnPost poll, we saw the breakdown between men and women, which I think is really in line with what we've seen in a lot of national polls, what we've seen in a lot of states so far.

[00:10:57] Harris is up double digits with women at 13 points.

[00:11:00] Trump is up double digits with men at 12 points.

[00:11:03] In the KSTP poll, Harris is still up 16 points with women.

[00:11:06] But this survey had Trump or had the two candidates tied with men leading to the quote unquote erosion of Trump support among men.

[00:11:15] And I find this one a little hard to believe largely because what is it that happened over the last month that would have warranted a double digit drop in Trump support among men?

[00:11:27] Julius, you're nodding along.

[00:11:28] I know you're not a Trump supporter here, but do you see anything?

[00:11:31] Do you is this kind of a little it just seems so such an outlier when it seems to when it comes to a lot of the public polls that we've looked at?

[00:11:38] Yeah, I actually agree with you there.

[00:11:40] I think this idea that Trump has lost double digits with men is crazy.

[00:11:44] I actually would maybe suggest that he's done more better with men this cycle around.

[00:11:49] And I think some of it is because of the way that his campaign is going and some of the ways that they're trying to message to especially younger men, but also black men.

[00:11:58] Right.

[00:11:58] I would say using polls, but also using private experience.

[00:12:01] There's a lot of black men in the city that I have known through DFL stuff or personal life that are saying they're going to vote for Trump.

[00:12:08] And it's very, very actually had a call with someone and said it's concerning a little bit like how many black men he's pulling that I know personally and that I've seen in polls.

[00:12:17] And so I think that's something to acknowledge.

[00:12:19] And I would agree again, I think it's absurd to suggest that maybe he's that he's losing among men or tied with her, but also on a national level doing Joe Rogan.

[00:12:29] That's his base right there.

[00:12:31] Like people who listen to Joe Rogan generally are younger or 18 to 45 men.

[00:12:35] And I think that doing that might be an attempt to shore up some of that support and solidify it.

[00:12:41] And so I agree with you.

[00:12:42] I think that's a pretty insane suggestion by that poll that somehow they're equal in that category.

[00:12:49] I agree with that.

[00:12:50] Michael, what's your take?

[00:12:52] It just goes back.

[00:12:53] Some of this has been discussed nationally that Trump's lead amongst men has reduced a bit.

[00:12:58] I don't know if it's apparent if it's that close.

[00:13:00] But again, to echo back on something that I've said before to go back to it, a lot of the conversations I've had with men, Republican men in particular, this cycle have been about their support for Harrison Walls because of reproductive rights, because of health care, because of abortion.

[00:13:17] And so as we get closer to the election, I do wonder if there's been a shift.

[00:13:22] And I will say it was insightful listening to John.

[00:13:25] One thing I will note is I will just put the marker down.

[00:13:28] There's never been an election that I've been more interested in seeing what the exit polling is and a breakdown and analysis of not just polling where things are, but where people ended up in this race.

[00:13:38] I've never been more inquisitive.

[00:13:39] And so I hope that we can bring these rocket scientists back and with the additional rocket science of Becky and we can go through and break this all down sometime after the election.

[00:13:50] It may be a month away.

[00:13:53] Yeah, who knows when we're going to have all the intel, but I cannot wait as well because as much as I love polls, I also, I think I mentioned before, love a good postmortem and analyzing of the back end as well.

[00:14:04] It's really creepy.

[00:14:07] Because we always talk about how often, how truthful are these folks?

[00:14:13] Are there still people that are embarrassed if they get a phone call to admit that they're voting for Donald Trump?

[00:14:18] Are there?

[00:14:18] I just, I don't buy that they're, first of all, the electorate that they get on the phone, like John mentioned, unless I have my computer up and can Google that number as it's incoming.

[00:14:28] I do not answer an unknown number.

[00:14:30] That surprised me at all.

[00:14:31] I think that's probably pretty large in that 18 to 45 year old gap.

[00:14:37] And, but back to this, to the gender breakdown, I do think that we've seen that Harris campaign obviously knows they have an issue with men.

[00:14:44] We saw the Madden live stream.

[00:14:47] We've seen a lot more of kind of hunting, shooting conversations.

[00:14:50] And like you said, Trump certainly knows that's his bread and butter and working on that angle.

[00:14:55] We'll chat a little bit more about gender in a little bit here.

[00:14:58] Last, I do want to talk about the geographic breakdown.

[00:15:02] But before I do, I want to hit on something that Michael just mentioned, the reproductive rights and that, how that's playing in this race.

[00:15:09] This is something we see that came out of them in post.

[00:15:12] Not only did they break out top issues that are important to voters, but they broke it up by gender.

[00:15:17] And I think this is something that we haven't, I haven't personally seen a lot of when it comes to it because I haven't had the time or desire to dive into those cross tabs.

[00:15:25] But when it comes to top issues, abortion obviously still ranks as a top issue.

[00:15:30] 42% of women polled said that as a top issue, but 26% of men.

[00:15:35] And Michael, I think we chatted about this a little bit last week of where we think this stands for men.

[00:15:40] And do we think that men are voting on this issue?

[00:15:42] And I've seen a lot of articles and studies showing that there are men that are saying they are voting in this election because of their wife, because of their children.

[00:15:51] And that is something that is a concern of them.

[00:15:54] And to see that a quarter of men in Minnesota, that is the top issue for them, I think is really compelling and something that I'm not sure that Republicans maybe took into account.

[00:16:05] That it was going to be a quarter of Minnesota men that would be voting on that issue.

[00:16:11] So it's a great point, Mike.

[00:16:13] And it reminded me that I should disclose again, which I do every podcast since I made the discussion that I've endorsed Harrison Walls and I'm a Republican for Harris.

[00:16:20] And so that should people should take that into account when they listen to my analysis and commentary.

[00:16:25] But that being said, I agree with you.

[00:16:27] And I don't want to make my experience what others are experienced.

[00:16:30] I know we can have that kind of bias sometimes.

[00:16:33] But I do think you make a great point.

[00:16:35] And just my experience from talking, I was surprised by the number of conversations, as I've said before, that have been on abortion, reproductive rights and health care.

[00:16:43] And so I think it's going to be real interesting when we get through this election, whenever that is, that we look at the polling data.

[00:16:51] Because, again, this is, I think, where the gender gap is, what was the top issue, what drove people to vote.

[00:16:57] This is a very unique election in a sense that I've heard other smart people say this.

[00:17:03] So I'm just echoing what smart people are saying, so don't give it credit to me.

[00:17:06] This is the first election in, I think, modern time since the advent of polling that was credible, that no one has been ahead by more than five points in recent time.

[00:17:16] So we are literally coming into election where it's a flip of a coin.

[00:17:20] And I think that's nerve wracking for a lot of people.

[00:17:24] I think it's really exciting.

[00:17:25] My messaging that I've said to my wife, to my children, to anyone I know is flip of a coin, flip of a coin, flip of a coin.

[00:17:32] And I don't think I'll be surprised either way as to how the election turns out.

[00:17:37] But I will be very interested.

[00:17:39] And there may be some surprises in the polling data.

[00:17:42] And I really look forward to discussing that.

[00:17:44] As Becky, you love a good autopsy, a good postmortem.

[00:17:47] And so we'll make sure to appease you and bring that body up so we can get that postmortem and autopsy done.

[00:17:53] Perfect.

[00:17:53] Perfect.

[00:17:54] Inflation was another top issue.

[00:17:56] 69% of men said that was their top, 53% of women.

[00:18:00] And then just briefly, breaking down some of the geographic breakdown in the state, I don't think a ton of surprise.

[00:18:05] Here, greater Minnesota, Trump kills it.

[00:18:08] And Minn Post is up 33.

[00:18:10] And KSTP is up 23.

[00:18:13] Harris is up greatly in the urban metro Minneapolis-St. Paul.

[00:18:18] Up 49% in Minn Post and up 33% in the KSTP.

[00:18:23] And then the suburban is where it really differs again between these two polls.

[00:18:27] Minn Post has Harris up by three.

[00:18:30] KSTP has Harris up by 13.

[00:18:32] This is where I'm really interested to see the breakdown.

[00:18:36] And, John, I'm interested to see in some of your work and what you are doing at the legislative level.

[00:19:11] And then come back and vote Republican down ballot.

[00:19:14] I think has potential to lead to success for Republicans in the House and potentially in Senate District 45.

[00:19:20] But what's your take of what you're feeling in the suburbs and the disparity between 3% or 13% in these polls?

[00:19:29] One thing that I would caution about hoping for too much ticket splitting is that Minnesota has become, like everywhere else, very partisan.

[00:19:36] People are really dug in.

[00:19:38] We used to see...

[00:19:38] Crush in my dreams.

[00:19:40] I mean, in 2016, we had legislators who were running like 20 points ahead of Donald Trump.

[00:19:45] But by 2018, 2020, those very much looked more like the top of the ticket.

[00:19:51] Now, there's still an extent of ticket splitting that happens.

[00:19:55] And I think looking at Amy Klobuchar, she always outperforms the rest of the Democrats.

[00:20:00] So I think we can put her in a unique bucket.

[00:20:03] But I think I'm expecting kind of those trends to continue where we see less ticket splitting.

[00:20:08] As to the polls and what we're seeing in the suburbs, I think this is why it's so dangerous to go cross-tab diving

[00:20:13] and try and really draw broad inferences.

[00:20:16] Because if we're defining suburbs as anywhere in the seven-county metro that's not Minneapolis or St. Paul,

[00:20:23] that's a big area, right?

[00:20:25] And if we're talking about an end size of, what, 200, 250, maybe 300,

[00:20:31] those suburbs look very different from one another in a lot of cases, right?

[00:20:35] Even looking at just the county level, Hennepin County looks different from Anoka County.

[00:20:39] It looks different from Scott County, certainly.

[00:20:43] So as you look at that and where they're scattered across the metro,

[00:20:48] hoping that you have a representative sample from all of those different suburbs.

[00:20:52] But even within the suburbs themselves, they look very different, right?

[00:20:56] St. Louis Park and Hopkins look more of Minneapolis in a lot of ways compared to something like a,

[00:21:02] call it a Lakeville or a Shakopee.

[00:21:06] Yeah, those just, it's really hard to take a look at a statewide survey and go cross-tab diving in there.

[00:21:12] And I think what we'll see is that it's like a lot of other places, right?

[00:21:16] There's competitive suburban areas and there's less competitive suburban areas on kind of both sides of the ticket, right?

[00:21:23] If you've got the Wright County seats and kind of the Southern Dakota County seats

[00:21:29] versus the Hopkins and St. Louis Park area, and then you've got out by Minnetonka-Chanhassen or down in Infergrove Heights, wherever it might be,

[00:21:41] I think those are going to behave a lot differently on election night.

[00:21:47] That's what I said.

[00:21:48] Last comment I have on this before we move on is the favorable or more likely the unfavorable ratings of these candidates.

[00:21:57] Excuse me.

[00:21:58] Vance made some really good strides since the vice president debate.

[00:22:02] He was negative 16, far more unfavorable than favorable in the last poll.

[00:22:08] He's still negative 8 on that scale, but cut that in half.

[00:22:12] Harris is negative 5.

[00:22:14] Trump is underwater by 11.

[00:22:16] Wells is the only one that's in the positive there.

[00:22:18] So he is plus 2.

[00:22:20] Go Minnesota, representing that Minnesota nice being reflected on the national scale.

[00:22:24] I don't think a ton of surprise here.

[00:22:26] I don't know.

[00:22:28] Any comments on this before we move on?

[00:22:31] No.

[00:22:32] Go Walls.

[00:22:33] Go Walls, yeah.

[00:22:34] There you go.

[00:22:35] We are going to move into some of these recent events by these two campaigns.

[00:22:40] So we're heading into these final days.

[00:22:42] I would like to think that everything is tied up in a nice little bow and we have no surprises and everything is message discipline.

[00:22:49] It's been a bit of a dumpster fire, particularly maybe on a recent Trump campaign event.

[00:22:57] But we're going to start with Harris.

[00:22:59] So Harris had our CNN town hall last week hosted by Anderson Cooper.

[00:23:02] This was in lieu of a second debate that Trump declined to participate in.

[00:23:07] I am a big proponent of doing this when an outlet offers to host a debate.

[00:23:14] One side doesn't want to show up and they still want to give that time to the other one.

[00:23:17] More power to you.

[00:23:18] It is always, as much as I've given Harris a hard time for not doing a lot of interviews, especially on the front end,

[00:23:26] going into a town hall with undecided voters, that's a little...

[00:23:30] Town halls are tough.

[00:23:32] They're just a little extra...

[00:23:35] You don't know what's going to happen.

[00:23:37] And so I have to give her credit for showing up for doing that.

[00:23:41] She...

[00:23:41] Some key moments.

[00:23:42] It came on the heels of the General Kelly comments about Trump and Hitler.

[00:23:47] And so a key moment that was really highlighted coming out of this town hall was that Trump is a fascist.

[00:23:53] She did have a better attempt at differentiating herself from Biden.

[00:23:56] We chatted about the last time around when she was asked how she would differ from Biden or what she would do differently.

[00:24:02] And she said absolutely nothing.

[00:24:03] And wow, was that a missed opportunity.

[00:24:07] She did better at this.

[00:24:08] She talked a lot about her faith.

[00:24:10] Talking with her pastor when all of this was going down.

[00:24:13] She said she prays every day.

[00:24:14] I think definitely something that trying to show a different side of herself.

[00:24:18] She talked about surrounding herself with smart people, which we can dive into if we want to talk about her staff turnover.

[00:24:24] But talking about the campaign and how she...

[00:24:26] That's how she really is going to lead and run her administration.

[00:24:30] Coming out of that town hall, there was a fair amount of criticism, including from Democrats, Dana Bash, David Axelrod.

[00:24:37] There was saying they're not...

[00:24:38] They were not super impressed that there was World Salad City.

[00:24:41] Lots of pivots didn't really answer questions, I think.

[00:24:44] Which I don't think is...

[00:24:47] Is anything new, right?

[00:24:49] This is the criticism we've seen about Kamala Harris for the last four, six, eight years.

[00:24:54] As she has been running for office.

[00:24:55] As she has been vice president.

[00:24:56] So I don't think that...

[00:24:58] I don't think it really...

[00:24:59] The town hall, I don't necessarily did a lot to help her.

[00:25:02] But I don't think it hurt her.

[00:25:03] And I think we do have to give her credit for showing up, taking the hard questions, and making herself available when Donald Trump was not.

[00:25:11] So, Julius, I want to start with you.

[00:25:12] What did you think about the town hall or any of the potential quote-unquote fallout from it?

[00:25:18] Anything that concerned you coming out of that or anything that you were very pleased about?

[00:25:22] Yeah, neutral, right?

[00:25:24] I think...

[00:25:25] And I may have talked to this.

[00:25:26] I may have talked about this with Michael recently.

[00:25:28] And I know I definitely talked to another friend about this.

[00:25:31] I'm glad she did it.

[00:25:32] Because again, he's not really taking a ton of media.

[00:25:35] He canceled a lot of really big interviews.

[00:25:37] He did Joe Rogan.

[00:25:38] But that's what I would call a friendly interview based off of how it was conducted.

[00:25:42] I think she's doing a good job of getting out there a little bit more.

[00:25:44] Especially in the last couple of weeks, stretching into some not friendly territory with the Fox stuff.

[00:25:49] And then coming on to CNN and doing this town hall.

[00:25:54] What I will say is...

[00:25:55] And this is what I was talking to Michael and some others about.

[00:25:58] I have not been impressed with her staff that are running her campaign.

[00:26:01] Because it's the same staff that was running Biden's.

[00:26:04] And the same issue that Biden was having with media and the perception of him especially.

[00:26:13] Is I think the same things that Kamala Harris are having.

[00:26:16] Which is...

[00:26:17] Again, she's fumbled a lot of questions.

[00:26:19] Right?

[00:26:19] Like she...

[00:26:20] I think she has gone...

[00:26:21] Like on the view, she didn't respond and say, what would I do differently?

[00:26:24] She said absolutely nothing.

[00:26:25] At the end, she did.

[00:26:26] But it wasn't good enough.

[00:26:27] And then the CNN town hall, I still think, was not enough of a differentiation between

[00:26:33] how am I not Joe Biden?

[00:26:35] And how am I not Donald Trump?

[00:26:37] Obviously, one of those are easier to find out.

[00:26:40] But when the problem in this campaign was Joe Biden and when he drops out,

[00:26:43] you were still connected to him.

[00:26:45] Right?

[00:26:45] I don't think it's unloyal to say, you know what?

[00:26:47] I didn't agree with this or I didn't want to do this.

[00:26:50] But I was the vice president.

[00:26:51] I did it.

[00:26:51] Here's what I would do differently now.

[00:26:53] And I would agree with Axelrod and Dana Bash and some of these other people and say,

[00:26:56] I really think that's her biggest problem.

[00:26:59] We'll see what happens if it was enough.

[00:27:01] But I would still rather be her than Trump, for sure.

[00:27:05] Because at least she's going out there.

[00:27:07] And I think the everyday voter probably doesn't need as much meat, but they need more face time

[00:27:13] to get to know her.

[00:27:15] And so I think that's what they're doing.

[00:27:16] So yeah, like I said, I just am not super impressed with their campaign staff.

[00:27:20] If it was me when I got picked, I would have fired them all and been...

[00:27:23] Because that's her perception.

[00:27:24] She has a perception problem.

[00:27:25] And that was the same thing with Joe Biden.

[00:27:27] So I think that's if they make it through this, she better think better about who she

[00:27:31] brings into administration from that campaign staff.

[00:27:34] But yeah, so that's where I feel about all of it.

[00:27:39] Michael, what was your takeaways from the town hall?

[00:27:42] I thought it was...

[00:27:43] I thought she did a good job.

[00:27:44] Look, they had a number of exit poll.

[00:27:47] They had a number of people that they polled after and a number of them decided to support

[00:27:51] her.

[00:27:51] I think she's doing everything that could be asked of her when she's running.

[00:27:56] And she's a different type of candidate than in terms of...

[00:28:00] Let me remember the phrase that.

[00:28:01] This is a different type of campaign than we've seen in the past.

[00:28:04] It's a very short campaign.

[00:28:05] And I think that Kamala Harris and her staff are doing everything they can to put themselves

[00:28:10] in front of the voters and make decisions.

[00:28:12] No politician is perfect.

[00:28:13] But the fact that she stood on stage and was willing to answer questions and talk to people

[00:28:18] when Donald Trump backed out of that debate and missed that opportunity really shows,

[00:28:23] I think, that this election is about contrast.

[00:28:26] It's not held in a vacuum.

[00:28:27] And I think overall, I don't think the election is not going to be decided by pundits and people

[00:28:33] are going to get to vote in the election.

[00:28:35] And I think in terms of what was successful, far more many things to compliment and be excited

[00:28:41] about than be critical of.

[00:28:43] And so glad she did it.

[00:28:44] I wish there would have been a Republican candidate on stage.

[00:28:48] Trump has avoided a lot of contrast and debate for a reason, I think.

[00:28:52] And kudos to her for going.

[00:28:53] She won over some undecideds and the race is still very close.

[00:28:58] John, I want to get your insight, but I want to play devil's advocate real quick and just

[00:29:02] say that I wouldn't, I would push back on Donald Trump backing out of the debate.

[00:29:07] He didn't, he did his two debates.

[00:29:09] He didn't agree to this debate and then back out.

[00:29:11] I think it was a differing of opinions of whether they should have a second debate.

[00:29:14] I thought that they should have a second debate, but I just got to play devil's advocate

[00:29:18] a little bit on your verbiage.

[00:29:20] Yep.

[00:29:22] Yeah, I like to.

[00:29:23] John.

[00:29:24] Let me start by saying that I grew up in a middle-class family and getting back to what

[00:29:29] Julius was saying, look, this is so much of what is plaguing Kamala Harris and keeping

[00:29:36] her from breaking through.

[00:29:37] And I think we see it with why her favorables are starting to tick back down, why she's losing

[00:29:43] a step, at least according to most of the surveys that have been coming out lately, really

[00:29:49] boils down to two things.

[00:29:50] It's authenticity and it's trust.

[00:29:52] And the voters want to know.

[00:29:55] Everybody talks about, oh, I need to know more about her and think that they're talking

[00:29:59] about what's what issue and what policies.

[00:30:03] And can you put out a white paper?

[00:30:05] It's not what the voters want.

[00:30:06] The voters, what they're saying is, and I trust this person and is she authentic?

[00:30:12] And she has failed both of those tasks.

[00:30:16] And so much of it is self-inflicted.

[00:30:18] When she comes out, she has a record from when she was in the Senate, when she was the

[00:30:23] most liberal member of the Senate, when she was like the third least likely to author bipartisan

[00:30:30] legislation.

[00:30:31] When she ran for president in 2019 on a host of far left policies and tried to get to the

[00:30:38] left of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.

[00:30:40] And now we have her spokesman out there saying that's no longer her position, right?

[00:30:44] We don't get what's the new position.

[00:30:46] It's my values haven't changed, but that's not my position.

[00:30:49] The voters say that's word salad and I don't trust you because she doesn't explain why those

[00:30:56] things changed.

[00:30:57] And then you get to the authenticity and everything just seems so staged, right?

[00:31:03] She can't admit that Biden had lost a step, right?

[00:31:06] She got asked in an ABC interview the other day.

[00:31:10] So Biden was actually fading, right?

[00:31:12] Like he's not all there.

[00:31:13] And her answer is always he's sharp as a tack.

[00:31:16] And every single anchor who asks her about it says, when, why is he not?

[00:31:21] Why are you here instead of him?

[00:31:23] Right.

[00:31:23] And it falls flat.

[00:31:24] It's just, it rings so hollow.

[00:31:26] So many of the other things in her campaign where we're getting these platitudes and we're

[00:31:31] getting these stories.

[00:31:32] And well, let me just start by saying, I grew up in a middle-class family and it's become

[00:31:36] a meme.

[00:31:37] And that's where she's really falling short, love him or hate him.

[00:31:41] You know what Donald Trump thinks, what he believes, and he's telling you whether you like

[00:31:46] it or not.

[00:31:47] He is out there and we can look at kind of the things that he has been consistent on for

[00:31:52] the last eight years at this point.

[00:31:54] It is immigration.

[00:31:55] It is cracking down on China's unfair trade practices.

[00:32:00] It is trying to rebuild America from the bottom up.

[00:32:04] And yeah, plenty of people don't like how he says things.

[00:32:09] Plenty of people don't like some of the things that he has to say, but you know what you're

[00:32:12] getting with him.

[00:32:13] And I think that's a question that a lot of people have about Kamala Harris is, are we

[00:32:18] getting the San Francisco DA who prosecuted parents because their kids were truant?

[00:32:25] Are you getting the most liberal member of the Senate?

[00:32:28] Are you getting the most liberal member of the presidential candidate class of 2019?

[00:32:35] Or are you getting the campaign version and Brian Fallon saying that's no longer her position

[00:32:40] on background?

[00:32:42] I think that this is, just to push back a bit, I think that some of your criticism is

[00:32:47] fair.

[00:32:47] I also think that it misses, I think, the reality of where this race is.

[00:32:51] It's clear.

[00:32:51] I think Kamala Harris is in an incredibly difficult position.

[00:32:55] She's in, she's, and I think in some ways she's in a no-win situation in a sense that she came

[00:33:01] in because of an historic moment with Joe Biden that I think we all agree should have been

[00:33:07] handled differently.

[00:33:07] And I think she's trying to navigate why Joe Biden isn't there while simultaneously trying

[00:33:13] to offer a contrast to what Donald Trump will be like.

[00:33:17] And so I'm, I get the, I understand.

[00:33:21] I do think it's going to pivot immensely into, I want to pivot this in much more into our next

[00:33:26] conversation when we talk about the double standard.

[00:33:28] But I don't think how anyone could, I don't think there's any contrast.

[00:33:32] I don't think there's in any way you can put a performance on a debate state, a performance

[00:33:37] on a town hall with what we saw at Madison Square Garden.

[00:33:40] And then what we'll, which we'll talk about after that, which is the event of the ellipse

[00:33:44] last night.

[00:33:45] And if I could just offer some pushback too, sorry, I don't want to.

[00:33:48] No, go for it.

[00:33:50] Yeah.

[00:33:50] I just wanted to say to you, the other thing I think you hit on Michael, that was really

[00:33:54] good that I also want to offer pushback on is the reality of the race, right?

[00:33:57] We have one candidate who's offering a very people-centered campaign message, which is,

[00:34:05] listen, I know what it's like to go back to Don's beam thing.

[00:34:07] Like I'm from the middle class.

[00:34:08] I know what it's like to be there.

[00:34:10] And like the economy isn't where it should, it's good, but isn't where it should be still.

[00:34:15] And again, I think a lot of the criticisms that John is offering are very valid.

[00:34:20] But when you, and when you get thrown into a presidential race where you don't have a

[00:34:24] full cycle to run, you didn't really know you were going to run and you keep the same

[00:34:27] staff.

[00:34:28] It becomes really hard to have a lot of people around you that are offering alternative

[00:34:33] opinions.

[00:34:34] What I think she really struggles with right now, which I think walls balance her out.

[00:34:38] It balances her out with is just being very personable.

[00:34:41] She, unfortunately, I think does not have the ability to be a very emotional, to be a

[00:34:48] very empathetic in the sense of really bringing in people's emotions and engaging with them

[00:34:53] in that way on the campaign trail.

[00:34:55] And I think walls does that well for her.

[00:34:57] And he does some of that stuff, but she has to come off as professional and like, she knows

[00:35:02] what she's doing and how to run a country because that's the biggest problem people have with

[00:35:05] her is they just don't know if she can run the country.

[00:35:07] And so I think for her, she's trying to do a balancing act of that.

[00:35:11] And again, I think it's her campaign staff, her top leadership that are struggling to shift

[00:35:16] from a Biden campaign and what he was trying to combat to what she's at.

[00:35:20] And some of the criticisms of her that are much, much different because with Joe Biden,

[00:35:25] it's dude, you're old.

[00:35:26] I don't even think you're going to make it to a second term, which I trust me.

[00:35:29] I agree with that.

[00:35:30] But for her, it's no longer, can you make it to a second term?

[00:35:33] It's, can you do a one term?

[00:35:35] Because when you were vice president, it didn't go well for some of the things that you were

[00:35:39] handled with.

[00:35:40] So I think the criticisms are fair, but they have to be shifted in a different light in

[00:35:45] the way that we look at Kamala Harris.

[00:35:46] But what I will say, even though I have my criticisms of her campaign is that I think

[00:35:51] she has done well as presenting as a strong leader who understands what she's talking about.

[00:35:57] And she just needs to shift the messaging a little bit to be able to make it more people friendly.

[00:36:03] And I want to, I think this is a great conversation and I want to chat a little bit more about this

[00:36:08] because I think we have alluded to this in the intro and some of these that we're going

[00:36:12] to chat about the double standard and some of the narrative going around about that.

[00:36:16] Want to hit real quick on this Trump's Madison Square Garden event, which seemed to be a little

[00:36:21] bit of an open mic free for all.

[00:36:23] And there was certainly the comedian who made the joke about Puerto Rico being a garbage

[00:36:28] island is the biggest thing that I think we've seen covered coming out of there.

[00:36:32] I will start by saying that, I mean, obviously a lot of the comments were pretty abhorrent

[00:36:37] and absurd.

[00:36:38] And I disagree with this event even being a thing.

[00:36:42] I can go, we could have an entire podcast episode about all of the campaigns that I have

[00:36:48] seen or been involved in or gone to events for in the last 10 days of the election.

[00:36:53] When is my personal belief, the last 10 days of the election, you should not be doing a

[00:36:58] event with 30 to 100,000 people that are already voting for you.

[00:37:02] That time is too crucial.

[00:37:04] You need to be going and talking to other voters.

[00:37:06] You need to be finding a way to doing messaging that you are going to be potentially picking

[00:37:10] up some of those voters.

[00:37:11] Go talk to, if the Trump's campaign strategy is with low propensity voters, go talk to them,

[00:37:17] target those folks, get more people to the polls.

[00:37:19] These people are already voting for you.

[00:37:21] It was a day wasted in a state that he's never going to win.

[00:37:24] We know Trump likes to stroke his ego.

[00:37:27] And that clearly is what this event in his home state, one of his two home state, I don't

[00:37:31] know which one he's claiming this year, New York or Florida, but state there was currently,

[00:37:35] I want to go back to this joke.

[00:37:36] We'll chat a little bit about the response we heard last night from the president, but

[00:37:40] it's clear that there was like a vetting issue with this.

[00:37:43] Apparently people were saying this was vetted because it was loaded on the teleprompter.

[00:37:47] I've heard that this joke was also a rogue joke that was not in the teleprompter.

[00:37:52] John, I'm going to start with you.

[00:37:53] Do you have any good that came out of the Madison Square Garden event that you want to share?

[00:37:58] It's looking at it.

[00:38:00] I can't figure out why they brought a roast comedian to a political rally.

[00:38:04] Right.

[00:38:04] If you know anything about Kill Tony, this is very on brand for him.

[00:38:09] Yeah.

[00:38:10] Jon Stewart put together a montage of this guy going to roast throughout the country.

[00:38:16] He was at the roast of Tom Brady.

[00:38:18] This is what roast comedians do.

[00:38:20] And a political rally was the wrong place for it.

[00:38:23] I think that sets the wrong tone.

[00:38:25] There was also really high expectations going into this.

[00:38:30] You knew that the Democrats were going to say that Republicans going to Madison Square

[00:38:36] Garden was a Nazi rally, right?

[00:38:39] And they were going to look and try and make that equation because we know that's what the

[00:38:43] Democrats do, right?

[00:38:44] They pull out the Nazi card.

[00:38:45] They've been doing it since they called Eisenhower a Nazi.

[00:38:49] It's every single presidential candidate since Eisenhower has been called a Nazi.

[00:38:55] So you knew that was where they were going to go.

[00:38:57] And then you give them ammunition to go do it.

[00:39:01] And I think it's the biggest piece that's an unforced error is that we're spending the

[00:39:08] morning five days from the election talking about somebody whose name is not Donald Trump,

[00:39:12] right?

[00:39:13] Nobody cares about Tony Hinchcliffe.

[00:39:16] If Donald Trump is not leading the news, it's bad.

[00:39:20] And I think Kamala Harris is learning that same lesson as we spend this morning talking

[00:39:24] about how Joe Biden called Trump supporters garbage.

[00:39:28] And both of these campaigns, their surrogates have to get out of their own way.

[00:39:32] Because if we're not talking about Kamala Harris and we're not talking about Donald Trump,

[00:39:37] then your campaign is missing an opportunity to sell themselves to the American people.

[00:39:42] And you only have so many bites at the apple.

[00:39:45] You go back to that CNN town hall, but the only undecided people who watched that town hall were

[00:39:50] sitting in the audience.

[00:39:51] They weren't watching at home.

[00:39:53] Those were decided partisan voters who wanted to hear from the candidate who they like or

[00:39:58] hate watch or the people like Aaron Rupar clipping it to try and post on Twitter.

[00:40:04] So it's these little moments and the little headlines and the little flashes where you have an opportunity

[00:40:10] to talk to undecided voters.

[00:40:11] And I think the Madison Square Garden cut through.

[00:40:15] If I pull any sort of positive out of it is that even in a Madison Square Garden that was filled

[00:40:24] with the most ardent Trump supporters, the most MAGA people, these jokes fell flat, right?

[00:40:30] There were jeers.

[00:40:31] There were people groaning.

[00:40:33] The applause and laughter was very muted.

[00:40:36] And so I think that tells us something about what the Republican Party actually is.

[00:40:41] And even though Donald Trump gets called a Nazi, even though Joe Biden wants to call anyone

[00:40:46] who supports Donald Trump a garbage person, I think that there's still a lot of good people

[00:40:51] in the Republican Party.

[00:40:52] And I think we saw that shine through.

[00:40:54] And congratulations to Tony Hinchcliffe because I think he's the first person who has ever gotten

[00:41:00] the Trump campaign to put out a statement saying they disagree with something that was said at

[00:41:04] one of their rallies.

[00:41:06] He also had surpassed Taylor Swift in Google searches over the weekend.

[00:41:10] So congratulations.

[00:41:11] He certainly got his name out there.

[00:41:14] Michael, I have a thought you have some opinions about this.

[00:41:17] Yes, a few points to say.

[00:41:19] First of all, let's talk about what introduced Nazi into this conversation or into this election.

[00:41:24] It was John Kelly saying that Donald Trump was praising Nazi generals.

[00:41:29] I have been consistent my entire communications life that any comparisons to the Nazi are bad.

[00:41:36] I have a long and consistent track record of pointing that out.

[00:41:38] But in this particular instance, I have to reframe it because I have to say that it's

[00:41:43] always been from the criticism generally from Democrats calling Republicans Nazis and stuff

[00:41:47] like that.

[00:41:47] I get that whole shtick.

[00:41:48] It's tired.

[00:41:49] It's bad form and it shouldn't be done.

[00:41:51] But in this particular instance, it was Trump, according to John Kelly, a four-star general,

[00:41:56] a retired four-star general who was his longest serving chief of staff, said that Trump was

[00:42:01] praising Nazis and praising the generals that Hitler had.

[00:42:05] So that's a new way in which to frame the Nazi comparison.

[00:42:09] So when Democrats have called the Republican elected official acting like Nazis or Hitler,

[00:42:14] it was bad.

[00:42:15] And when Donald Trump reportedly, according to his chief of staff, if he's out there saying

[00:42:20] that he wishes that he had more generals like Hitler, that's a problem too.

[00:42:25] And so I think that Republicans are being disingenuous about the origin of the Nazi discussion this

[00:42:32] election cycle.

[00:42:33] Speaking specifically about the Madison Square Garden event, yeah, it was open mic night.

[00:42:37] It was open mic night and it was absolutely an absolute hate rally.

[00:42:41] There's no question it was.

[00:42:42] Let's set aside Tony Hinkley for a second.

[00:42:44] A speaker went up there and said that Kamala compared her to a prostitute and said that

[00:42:49] she had pimp handlers.

[00:42:51] Tucker Carlson out there and said that she was the first Samoan Malaysian low IQ former

[00:42:56] prosecutor ever to be elected president.

[00:42:58] Someone up there and said that she was the Antichrist.

[00:43:01] And so this was really bad.

[00:43:03] And so I understand and I want to be consistent about something.

[00:43:07] I understand and I come through the Al Franken research wing of the Republican Party.

[00:43:13] I understand that jokes are made.

[00:43:15] I understand that humor can be a part of an election cycle.

[00:43:18] What I don't understand is, OK, I accept the premise that some of this stuff was a joke.

[00:43:24] What's funny about it?

[00:43:25] I remember saying that when Franken was doing stuff, when I was writing at Minnesota Democrats

[00:43:29] Exposed.

[00:43:30] And there was all of these points we were trying to make about Franken's jokes.

[00:43:34] And it was a discussion we had, which was, OK, I accept the premise that this is a joke.

[00:43:38] What's funny about it?

[00:43:39] What's funny about calling Kamala Harris the Antichrist?

[00:43:42] What's funny about going out there and calling her that she has pimp handlers?

[00:43:46] What's funny about some of this rhetoric?

[00:43:48] It's not.

[00:43:49] And the fact that it made it through the vetting process of the Trump campaign, that means that

[00:43:55] this type of humor is funny in the Trump universe.

[00:43:59] And I agree with John about the Trump campaign disavowing it, but they disavowed one comedian

[00:44:05] and not all of the other ridiculous commentary that was delivered towards Kamala Harris.

[00:44:10] The Republicans performed at that Madison Square Garden rally exactly like Democrats said

[00:44:16] they were going to, that it was going to be a hate rally.

[00:44:18] And it was.

[00:44:18] And another thing to add on to that, too, because so I'm Puerto Rican and generally I would

[00:44:23] I like Tony Inchcliffe.

[00:44:25] Actually, I watch Kill Tony and I think he's pretty funny.

[00:44:27] I like his roast.

[00:44:27] He's a little edgy for sure.

[00:44:29] But as Michael was saying, too, right, here's some miscalculations by the Trump campaign.

[00:44:33] If this was vetted, you're in the state with the highest concentration of Puerto Rican

[00:44:37] people outside of the outside of Puerto Rico.

[00:44:40] New York has the highest population of Puerto Ricans outside of Puerto Rico.

[00:44:44] And then Chicago is in second.

[00:44:45] Why would you send someone up there to say something horrible about Puerto Rico?

[00:44:49] Right.

[00:44:49] The other part of that is when Puerto Rico had a hurricane, Donald Trump is throwing paper

[00:44:52] towels at them like it's shooting paper towels at them.

[00:44:55] Like this is some sort of like celebrity basketball tournament.

[00:44:58] And then again, calling like Michael mentioned someone going and calling Kamala Harris the antichrist

[00:45:04] and spewing and then other people going up there and spewing misogynistic comments.

[00:45:08] Right.

[00:45:08] The number one problem with the Trump with Trump and his campaign is people think he's racist.

[00:45:14] Why would you and a misogynist?

[00:45:16] Because he got caught saying like he likes to grab women by wherever.

[00:45:20] Why would you send people out there that solidify those opinions about that person in the last five

[00:45:26] days?

[00:45:26] And like John said, we're talking about Tony Hinchcliffe rather than Donald Trump.

[00:45:30] And really, if we're talking about Donald Trump saying stupid stuff, it's probably better for

[00:45:34] him than what we're talking about now, because at least it's about him and not about what his

[00:45:38] people, what his surrogates are saying.

[00:45:39] I think there has to be an acknowledgement that he he's doing in the last week.

[00:45:45] He has done a poor job.

[00:45:48] Of making this race about what he wants to do versus what people are saying who are related

[00:45:53] to him.

[00:45:54] And I'm glad it's eating it up because then it gives him less of an opportunity to sell

[00:45:57] himself, frankly.

[00:45:58] But like I said, I like Tony Hinchcliffe.

[00:46:00] I think he's funny.

[00:46:01] I think that was a really poor tasting joke for the state you're in and for the situation

[00:46:05] that Donald Trump has, which is he was shooting paper towels at people like in Puerto Rico

[00:46:09] during the hurricane.

[00:46:10] But but at the same time, I think Nazi is pretty aggressive.

[00:46:13] Now, I see Michael's point, but I think the rhetoric change has to come down a little bit.

[00:46:19] And it's not going to happen on the Republican side, obviously, as we've seen, at least

[00:46:22] from the top down.

[00:46:23] And so I don't think it's in play to call Trump a Nazi.

[00:46:28] I do think it's in play to call him a fascist.

[00:46:30] But the rhetoric change has to start somewhere.

[00:46:32] And I think being the adults in the room would be the best choice for Kamala for the next

[00:46:36] couple of days and just selling her vision versus slamming him for something that's going

[00:46:40] to be picked up by media outlets either way.

[00:46:43] So I just last thing I want to say on this is just also that I was surprised.

[00:46:49] I do believe that it was because of some potential capacity issues that Biden maybe slipped in

[00:46:55] his statements.

[00:46:56] But he did say that it's not the Puerto Rico, that Puerto Ricans that are garbage.

[00:47:01] It's Trump supporters.

[00:47:02] And I do think that as a sitting president, that is a pretty strong statement that came

[00:47:06] out last night that they are trying to backpedal.

[00:47:08] And I think John made a really good point that as we're five days out from the election

[00:47:12] today and the last 72 hours, 24 hours have been about kill Tony and Joe Biden and not

[00:47:20] the two candidates.

[00:47:20] And that's not a recipe for success on either side.

[00:47:25] Let's just be mindful of something.

[00:47:27] Joe Biden has, first of all, Donald Trump hasn't apologized for anything.

[00:47:30] His campaign issued a statement saying that the joke specifically about Puerto Rico doesn't

[00:47:36] align with the values of the campaign.

[00:47:38] Joe Biden misspoke and has dialed it back and has accepted responsibility for his remarks.

[00:47:45] Oh, he didn't misspeak.

[00:47:46] The Democrats say this all the time.

[00:47:49] They think that Republicans are garbage.

[00:47:51] They say, I can't believe that Donald Trump could be winning.

[00:47:55] They're garbage.

[00:47:56] They're all trash.

[00:47:56] He didn't misspeak.

[00:47:58] He flipped up and said what he actually believes.

[00:48:01] John, let me just let me finish for a second.

[00:48:03] The president of the United States went out and according to him, he's acknowledged that

[00:48:07] it was something that he'd wish he wouldn't have said.

[00:48:09] You can disagree as to whether he meant that or not, but it's the statement I'm saying to

[00:48:15] you is that Donald Trump has not issued any statement disavowing what was said at Madison

[00:48:22] Square Garden.

[00:48:22] Not one bit.

[00:48:23] He, in fact, has said that he doesn't know anything about the comedian and didn't watch

[00:48:27] it.

[00:48:28] And so the campaign, if you want to talk about disavowing statements for a second, let's

[00:48:33] be consistent.

[00:48:33] The campaign did disavow and said there was some distance.

[00:48:37] They put some distance between the comedian's comment.

[00:48:40] The principal, Donald Trump, has not issued any statement.

[00:48:43] It is true what Joe Biden said last night.

[00:48:45] He has apologized.

[00:48:47] He put out a tweet and he's accepted responsibility for it.

[00:48:50] And so I understand the concern, but let's just be intellectually honest and say that in

[00:48:56] terms of we, if we want, if Republicans want to be the party of personal responsibility

[00:48:59] in terms of which person has accepted more responsibility for the unchallenged rhetoric,

[00:49:04] it's been Joe Biden.

[00:49:06] I wish he wouldn't have said it.

[00:49:07] I wish we are.

[00:49:08] How many days between an election?

[00:49:10] I don't think it should be open mic night at Madison Square Garden.

[00:49:13] And I don't think that I don't think Joe Biden should be doing Zoom conversations right

[00:49:17] now.

[00:49:17] I don't think it helps.

[00:49:18] But in terms of responsibility, and also let me push one more thing on Becky's point.

[00:49:22] Becky said that campaigns shouldn't be having these types of big rallies.

[00:49:26] Let me tell you something.

[00:49:27] You can have big rallies when you stay on message.

[00:49:29] You can have big rallies when you talk about issues that unite people.

[00:49:34] And look at what the vice president did last night.

[00:49:36] 75,000 people estimated closer to 100,000 people outside of the ellipse.

[00:49:41] And it was uniting positive speech.

[00:49:43] It was powerful.

[00:49:44] It was strong.

[00:49:45] And she did a great job of messaging to Republicans.

[00:49:49] I know it's fun.

[00:49:50] And I get the banter back and forth to try to bring Biden into it.

[00:49:54] But the bottom line, he's not on the ballot.

[00:49:56] And his president, and this is a distraction.

[00:50:00] This is a distinction, I think, with a difference.

[00:50:02] I don't think it's fair to say, yes, it's true.

[00:50:05] Republicans can't have a rally at Madison Square Garden.

[00:50:08] But Kamala Harris had an event last night on the ellipse that was patriotic, that was inviting,

[00:50:14] that had a positive message.

[00:50:15] And I think it really goes into our next subject, which is talking about the double standard.

[00:50:20] But I...

[00:50:22] Sorry.

[00:50:22] Sorry.

[00:50:23] I just want to keep us moving because we're coming up against an hour here.

[00:50:27] Michael, chat us through a little bit more about the speech Kamala did last night at the ellipse

[00:50:32] and that message that came out.

[00:50:33] This was closing arguments.

[00:50:34] And we'll get into the double standard and have an opportunity to battle a little bit further on that.

[00:50:40] But I do want to chat and give the opportunity to highlight the speech.

[00:50:44] It was a great speech.

[00:50:45] She gave a speech at the ellipse where it was the same point where Donald Trump incited a mob back on January 6th.

[00:50:53] She had 75,000 plus outside.

[00:50:55] And she talked about bipartisanship.

[00:50:57] She talked about working together.

[00:50:59] She talked about being a president for all Americans.

[00:51:01] It was a great speech.

[00:51:03] It was the type of inviting closing message that I think needs to happen.

[00:51:08] And I think it was the best speech that she's given.

[00:51:11] And it was very exciting to watch, fun to watch.

[00:51:16] And I just got to just tell you, I think this...

[00:51:20] It was just remarkable.

[00:51:21] And it's a great segue into the double standard because I think she hit it out of the park.

[00:51:25] And I think if you were an undecided voter looking at this race and were paying attention, I think there's no contrast on that message in terms of where I think Republicans can be.

[00:51:37] Donald Trump is talking about, and his campaign is talking about, the enemy with it.

[00:51:42] And we're going to talk about some of the mean tweets I've received later in some of the commentary.

[00:51:46] But there's a lot of ugliness, I think, right now inside the Republican Party, particularly around Trump's candidacy.

[00:51:52] And to have someone go out there and try to reset the tone, I think she did a great job.

[00:51:58] And it's the type of speech that I think a lot of Republicans in the past, if we weren't engaging in sub-tribalism, would have been supportive and cheerful of.

[00:52:08] I personally did not watch the speech, so I'll go back and catch it after this.

[00:52:14] But any other insight on that, Julius or John, from her speech last night?

[00:52:18] Yeah, I think I agree with Michael.

[00:52:20] It was a really good speech.

[00:52:21] It was a unifying speech.

[00:52:22] It was one about messaging and how are we going to close out these last couple days as we finish up this campaign.

[00:52:29] The other thing I want to talk about, too, that didn't get hit on, but highlights the difference in messaging at the end,

[00:52:34] was Trump did a press conference the day after the Madison Square Garden, yesterday, after Madison Square Garden,

[00:52:40] where he went on.

[00:52:42] It was televised by CNN, Fox News, and everyone expected it to be an apology.

[00:52:49] And then him talking about some other things.

[00:52:50] He didn't do that.

[00:52:51] He went up there.

[00:52:52] He continued the migrant lies about Haitians.

[00:52:55] He talked about some pretty aggressive points on the border.

[00:53:00] Same thing he's been doing.

[00:53:01] Nothing different, but just went up there and basically kept the same messaging that's negative, that's pretty gross, that's false, a lot of it.

[00:53:09] To the point where CNN...

[00:53:11] And lied about the election in 2020, by the way.

[00:53:14] And CNN cut it off because of how many times he lied.

[00:53:16] And then Fox News apologized after they were done airing the press conference because he lied so much.

[00:53:21] So it's like one's holding a press conference where Fox News has to apologize because he lied so many times about so many different things.

[00:53:30] And one's holding a rally with 80,000 people saying, let's do this together.

[00:53:36] We're going to move forward.

[00:53:37] Here's our message on the economy.

[00:53:38] Here's our message about abortion.

[00:53:39] Here's our message about these things.

[00:53:41] And it wasn't D.C., right?

[00:53:43] So take it with a grain of salt.

[00:53:44] Okay.

[00:53:44] Like the crowd...

[00:53:45] 80,000 people in D.C., she might eke that out.

[00:53:50] She might get across the finish line there in Northern Virginia.

[00:53:53] Yep.

[00:53:54] Do you think Trump's going to win New York?

[00:53:57] God, no.

[00:53:58] Okay.

[00:53:59] But it's what Michael was saying, right?

[00:54:02] Like these are the two contrasts of the candidates and what they're doing.

[00:54:07] And I think it's important to highlight like what one was doing on one day and what was one doing on the other and how they are running the end up until the end.

[00:54:17] I think this gets back to the problem that she's having with the voters, though.

[00:54:20] Nobody's said that she can't read a speech and deliver a speech.

[00:54:24] It's do the voters trust you?

[00:54:28] And right now she has a trust problem.

[00:54:31] And the voters who are undecided right now, they weren't watching her speech from the ellipse on her campaign's YouTube page or on Twitter or wherever it was broadcast.

[00:54:44] They were hanging out with their...

[00:54:45] On every cable network.

[00:54:47] They weren't watching it.

[00:54:49] They were taking care of their...

[00:54:52] Look, if you think that undecided voters were tuning into the speech at the ellipse, that's not what was going on.

[00:54:59] So they will see a headline about it today.

[00:55:02] But no, they weren't watching her speech on cable.

[00:55:05] So that's the thing that she is doing is she is trying to keep her base fired up.

[00:55:12] That's why she's talking about how Donald Trump is a fascist.

[00:55:14] That's why she's out there rallying in D.C.

[00:55:17] She has decided that this is going to be a base turnout election.

[00:55:21] That's why she went to Texas to talk about abortion.

[00:55:25] She's losing on the persuasion front.

[00:55:27] And it's because you get word salad and the voters don't think they can trust her on the issues.

[00:55:33] And she hasn't found a meaningful way to break from the positions that she used to hold in a coherent way that explains what are the values that you actually hold.

[00:55:44] And so I think it's very good for her that she had a positive speech.

[00:55:49] But I don't think that's moving voters.

[00:55:52] Jen Rubin cried about it.

[00:55:53] She's got Rubin locked up.

[00:55:55] Let me just say something in terms of a base election.

[00:55:58] There was former Congresswoman Barbara Comstock, a Republican.

[00:56:01] It's not a base election.

[00:56:02] This is a coalition that has built Dick Cheney, Liz Cheney, a lot of Republicans today.

[00:56:07] Republicans, Arnold, former governor Arnold Schwarzenegger announced he was supporting Kamala Harris and Tim Walls.

[00:56:12] I understand your narrative, John, about wanting to perceive that this is a base election.

[00:56:16] There is a more of a broad-based coalition around Kamala Harris that I think has existed in any modern campaign.

[00:56:23] And we'll see what happens on election day.

[00:56:25] It's still a flip of a coin, but she's made up a lot of ground.

[00:56:28] And that certainly wasn't a base message.

[00:56:30] Certainly wasn't a base message.

[00:56:32] And I know you may not have watched it, but as someone who did watch it, I will say it wasn't a base message.

[00:56:37] I want to move into, because I think this dovetails into our next conversation.

[00:56:41] And we got a number of different topics here, so let's keep them firing here.

[00:56:45] Quick responses.

[00:56:46] Double standard.

[00:56:47] So Morning Joe did a segment last week.

[00:56:50] Michael, you sent this to me.

[00:56:51] I thought it was really compelling and going to lead to a good conversation.

[00:56:55] They read a quote that said,

[00:57:10] I have some thoughts on this, but Michael, I want to start with you because I think this is something that we've chatted a little bit about.

[00:57:19] And I'm interested to hear what you're hearing from when you're at these events or talking within folks and other supporters, the Republicans for Harris, of what's going on and why this might be.

[00:57:31] I think it's pretty clear that there's a double standard.

[00:57:34] And I think that's one of the advantages of Trump being Trump.

[00:57:38] It is baked in.

[00:57:39] I think that Trump gets to get away with a lot of things that isn't applied to the other side.

[00:57:44] I think that with Trump comes chaos and people expect his crudeness, his racism, his fascist language.

[00:57:53] That gets to come with Trump and people have that accepted with him coming in.

[00:57:57] I think people have done, I think what Trump has benefited from immensely is the ability of people to separate his statements and understand that they're hiring him to do a job.

[00:58:09] And that's something that I've learned a lot over the last few months is that in speaking with a lot of people that are Trump supporters and people who are like, I'm with Trump and here's why.

[00:58:18] What I've come to the realization is that in a lot of their minds, they're hiring him for a job.

[00:58:23] And so they understand they don't agree with his rhetoric.

[00:58:27] They don't agree with his commentary.

[00:58:28] They don't agree with a lot of things that he said, but they still want him to do the job.

[00:58:32] And I think the challenge is that when we're getting close to the end of an election, we're engaging in a little bit of both sides of them.

[00:58:39] And I understand that.

[00:58:41] I don't think that there's any contrast, any comparison between the thoughts and messages that went into Harris's speech versus what went into the Madison Square Garden rally.

[00:58:51] I'm not someone who is ever has any type of track record of engaging in type of that kind of rhetoric against Trump.

[00:58:58] I've never called him America's sailor.

[00:59:00] That was his vice presidential pick would call him that.

[00:59:02] I'm not one to use that type of rhetoric, but I've been surprised by how I think there is a very consistent double standard.

[00:59:10] I remember hearing on this podcast with other people and I agree with it.

[00:59:14] I think if we were to go back and listen to some previous episodes, Preya and others made some points that says she needs to be doing interviews.

[00:59:22] She needs to be doing stuff.

[00:59:23] She does those things and it's not enough.

[00:59:25] And I get the game.

[00:59:26] I get that.

[00:59:27] But if you're asking me who is going out there more talking to the American voter and trying to build the coalition that I think can heal this country, I think Kamala Harris is doing it head and shoulders above anybody else.

[00:59:42] And honestly, though, I don't know if you said it.

[00:59:45] Maybe it was Truman.

[00:59:46] But if you want a friend in Washington, buy a dog.

[00:59:48] And I think it's true.

[00:59:50] I don't politics doesn't reward.

[00:59:53] Doesn't always reward the more thoughtful candidate.

[00:59:56] They don't reward the more principled position.

[00:59:59] This is a get out the vote X's and O's operation at this point.

[01:00:03] And so I understand the double standard.

[01:00:06] It's clear.

[01:00:07] It's consistent.

[01:00:09] It amazes me that Donald Trump can say the type of derogatory comments that he says about women.

[01:00:15] And he says those types of comments and he's able to get away with what he is.

[01:00:20] Donald Trump was charged, convicted.

[01:00:24] His poll numbers, I think, went up a little bit.

[01:00:26] What Donald Trump said was true.

[01:00:27] He could shoot someone, I think he said in Fifth Avenue, his poll numbers would go up.

[01:00:31] It's true.

[01:00:32] He is the key is.

[01:00:34] He has surpassed Reagan as the Teflon candidate.

[01:00:37] Nothing really sticks to this guy.

[01:00:39] And I think it's I think the commentary that was discussed on Morning Joe was insightful.

[01:00:44] It's true.

[01:00:45] I understand how we're here, but it was worth discussing.

[01:00:49] Certainly agree.

[01:00:50] I think there is a double standard going on.

[01:00:53] I think that Trump does have I think, John, you alluded to this earlier.

[01:00:57] We know who Trump is.

[01:00:58] And so when we get these, he's the racist uncle, right?

[01:01:02] Like when you go to Christmas and they say something and you don't balk at it versus if

[01:01:07] it was somebody else in a different scenario that you would push back and stand up.

[01:01:12] And so he does certainly I will not negate the fact that he gets away quite literally with

[01:01:17] almost murder in his verbiage and messaging.

[01:01:21] My frustration or maybe counter to this, and I'm going to throw it to John next to hopefully

[01:01:25] back me up, but goes to what John was saying earlier is I think when it comes to Donald

[01:01:31] Trump and this goes to this being such a unique election, I think largely we have had a front

[01:01:38] row seat to everything good, bad and ugly of Donald Trump for the last eight plus years.

[01:01:43] Kamala Harris, while she's been a prosecutor, while she's been a senator, while she's been

[01:01:48] a vice president, we haven't had that unvarnished, complete access passed to her life, her policies,

[01:01:55] her words, and what she stands for.

[01:01:58] And so I think where the extra criticism comes from is from my perspective and somebody who

[01:02:05] spent a decade working in communications is I expect a little bit more from our candidates

[01:02:10] when it comes to where we, whether you like it or not, where Donald Trump stands on a lot

[01:02:14] of the policies and he served in office.

[01:02:16] And I think there is a, again, not saying this as somebody who is casting my ballot for

[01:02:21] him, but there is a capability standard that I think some people have when it looks at him.

[01:02:27] That's still in question when it comes to Harris.

[01:02:30] And I think that is where some people, we still like John was talking about is the authentic,

[01:02:35] authenticity of her that we don't quite know what we're going to get.

[01:02:39] We don't see the firm answers.

[01:02:41] We see her waffle out of whether it's a question about Israel or taxes or gun control.

[01:02:47] We don't really know what we're going to get.

[01:02:49] And because of that, I think there are a lot more questions.

[01:02:52] And that's to me where I think that criticism comes from.

[01:02:55] Warranted or not, I don't have an answer to right or wrong.

[01:02:59] Obviously, I don't think that a lot of Trump's statements and what he has gotten away with

[01:03:03] and gotten passes from and the support that he still gets from saying some of that, I think

[01:03:07] is still quite wild.

[01:03:09] But that's where my criticism of Kamala Harris comes from is somebody who's been in this world

[01:03:15] and working in politics for a little bit for as long as she has.

[01:03:19] I would expect answers to be able to be tied up a little bit more if she authentically believes

[01:03:25] them.

[01:03:26] If she has a policy stance that she wants to stand on and articulate.

[01:03:30] And that's where my concern comes from is that I just, it boggles my mind sometimes when

[01:03:37] she didn't have that answer for what she would do differently than Donald Trump.

[01:03:41] If I was on her campaign, that would be a top three question that you're going to get in

[01:03:44] an interview that you would be prepped to have an answer for it.

[01:03:48] So easy.

[01:03:49] Baseball.

[01:03:50] Have something that doesn't.

[01:03:51] And so that's where I just get so frustrated because I think she can do better.

[01:03:55] And I think she obviously has the intelligence to back it up.

[01:03:59] I don't think she is an ignorant woman by any means.

[01:04:02] I think she obviously has proven that.

[01:04:05] I just, that's where my frustration and my criticism comes from when it comes to that.

[01:04:09] And John, I think you chatted about this a little bit before, but to the double standard,

[01:04:14] one, do you think that there is one?

[01:04:15] And two, why do you think that is?

[01:04:18] Yeah, no, you made some really good points there.

[01:04:20] And I think building on that, people do know that Kamala Harris is a very intelligent

[01:04:26] person, right?

[01:04:27] She is very successful in what she does.

[01:04:29] And that's what makes her inability to get these very simple to us answers out even less

[01:04:38] believable, right?

[01:04:40] If she actually no longer believed this, you're a smart person.

[01:04:44] You'd be able to explain how.

[01:04:46] If you're just saying what you think you need to say.

[01:04:49] And I think the credibility goes deeper than that, right?

[01:04:52] You can look at a lot of these Republican voters for Harris and some of the others who

[01:04:58] have really been against Trump for a long time.

[01:05:01] And you see so many of them abandoning the principles that they've espoused for years, if not decades,

[01:05:08] right?

[01:05:09] Where you get the kind of almost token.

[01:05:13] I don't agree with her on everything, but.

[01:05:16] And then later on, you get something like, and yeah, it's true to be electoral college.

[01:05:21] We've got to get rid of that.

[01:05:22] She made some good points on that.

[01:05:24] Or yeah, she made some good points.

[01:05:25] We need to ban assault weapons.

[01:05:27] And yeah, you've got, and it's become such a meme that you can go through the people from

[01:05:33] the Lincoln project or Jen Rubin or the loudest voices supporting her on the Republican side.

[01:05:39] And you can find places where they have argued the exact opposite thing.

[01:05:45] And I think I give a lot of credit to Michael because he has said my line in the sand is democracy

[01:05:50] and I don't care about the other issues.

[01:05:53] And yes, I agree with her.

[01:05:54] But so many of these other voices are trying to justify her left-wing agenda and say, maybe

[01:06:02] that's the conservative principle is to ban guns and raise taxes.

[01:06:06] And it just builds into that.

[01:06:08] As to the double standards, I think you've got to separate it, right?

[01:06:13] Because there's the voters and then there's the press and the coverage.

[01:06:17] And on the press and the coverage, I would say that double standard isn't there.

[01:06:21] Donald Trump has absolutely been covered very critically by the press.

[01:06:27] CNN had a countdown timer on his trial, right?

[01:06:31] There has been excellent work by reporters across the country covering him.

[01:06:37] I'm pretty sure that some of these outlets just employ fact checkers solely to watch Donald Trump speak.

[01:06:43] So the idea that there's not negative coverage and not critical coverage of Donald Trump is just not accurate.

[01:06:49] And then, yeah, when you talk about the voters, I think that he does get a little bit more leeway because of the filter that they're absorbing Donald Trump through.

[01:06:59] And they've got years and years of knowing him.

[01:07:01] It's not just that he was in office, but it's that they knew him before that.

[01:07:05] They knew him from The Apprentice.

[01:07:06] They knew him from Art of the Deal.

[01:07:07] They knew him from Home Alone 2.

[01:07:10] They get this filter that they absorb these things through and know that he's a brash New Yorker.

[01:07:16] Julius, what do you think?

[01:07:18] Yeah.

[01:07:19] Yeah.

[01:07:20] OK, so first thing in terms of double standards, media and coverage.

[01:07:25] I'm sorry.

[01:07:26] There's never been a president in history that has, one, lied as much as Donald Trump has, which is true.

[01:07:33] And also has not ever been convicted of 34 felony counts.

[01:07:38] That's a pretty tough one to navigate in terms of media and press.

[01:07:41] But also, again, with voters, especially people who are right wing voters, there's a very heavy double standard because let's just look at it in perspective.

[01:07:52] Kamala Harris comes into the race because Joe Biden drops out.

[01:07:54] What's the first thing they criticize her about?

[01:07:57] Not her policies, really.

[01:07:58] It's about the way she laughs.

[01:07:59] I remember the day after the day after Joe Biden announced, all I saw in my Twitter feed was what you generally chronically online people, but still people that are going to vote is people judging her about her cackle.

[01:08:12] That's a pretty interesting situation.

[01:08:15] Then again, people on social media and the press that's like tabloid trash, but got picked up by mainstream media is the story about her husband cheating with in his previous marriage with a babysitter.

[01:08:29] Was Donald Trump not having relations with a porn star while his wife just had a child?

[01:08:34] And is this not the guy that went and had all these affairs and was open about it until he became president?

[01:08:41] Right.

[01:08:41] Let's just put it in perspective.

[01:08:43] Donald Trump is doing things that are not norm to starting in 2015 and now that are still not norm for a presidential candidate and or a former president.

[01:08:54] And at the time, someone who was in office as president.

[01:08:58] Kamala Harris, all of the criticisms of her generally are things that are not about her policy, but they're about her.

[01:09:05] And some of it is about policy.

[01:09:06] I want to be clear about that.

[01:09:07] But when there's this like thing that's and Becky kind of said it and you said it that you don't know what you're getting with her.

[01:09:12] I can go on her website right now and find white papers about all the proposals she has.

[01:09:16] From her staff, though.

[01:09:17] That's not from her.

[01:09:18] Oh, come on, Becky.

[01:09:19] Oh, come on.

[01:09:20] Oh, come on.

[01:09:21] Why can't you tell me that?

[01:09:22] Why can't you say it?

[01:09:23] OK, wait a second.

[01:09:24] Let's just are we really going to now call out white papers on who we come on?

[01:09:30] And I also want to be very clear here.

[01:09:33] Right.

[01:09:33] If you're if your objection to her is her policy stances and the way she has shifted, she gave an answer.

[01:09:41] I got more information, by the way, when I became vice president.

[01:09:44] I was like, oh, wait, I was wrong about that.

[01:09:46] I'm going to change my position.

[01:09:47] OK, she and then again, if her criticism, she doesn't have enough policy.

[01:09:51] I can go on her website and find everything that she says she's going to do.

[01:09:54] Does she have time to write all those white papers?

[01:09:55] Probably not.

[01:09:56] But her answer isn't look at this policy.

[01:09:59] Right.

[01:09:59] Her answer is that's no longer my position.

[01:10:02] And they say, why isn't that your position?

[01:10:04] I got more information.

[01:10:05] What's your new position?

[01:10:06] That's not my position.

[01:10:07] I'm not going to ban fracking.

[01:10:09] I'm not going to tax unrealized capital gains.

[01:10:12] I'm not going to whatever right down the line.

[01:10:14] I mean, she ran on Medicare for all and banning private health insurance in 2019.

[01:10:20] Right.

[01:10:21] This is who she is at her core is she believes that we should ban private health insurance in

[01:10:28] this country.

[01:10:29] Now, did she back off it?

[01:10:31] But that's not my position.

[01:10:33] What's your new position?

[01:10:33] We need more people to be covered.

[01:10:36] OK, but what is your position and why did it change?

[01:10:42] And she can't articulate that because she's being spoon fed policies from staff and was

[01:10:49] told, don't say that it's not popular.

[01:10:52] Wait.

[01:10:52] OK, but hold on.

[01:10:53] That's what I want to say.

[01:10:54] But are you saying that are you pooh poohing saying are you saying that it's not good for

[01:10:58] so you are criticizing a politician for not saying something that's not popular?

[01:11:04] I'm criticizing her for not having an answer of how she has moved away from unpopular policies

[01:11:13] that I think you would agree would be bad for this country.

[01:11:16] If she decided that we're going to ban private health insurance, if we are going to enact price

[01:11:24] controls, if we are going to tax unrealized capital gains.

[01:11:29] Now, I have known you for a while.

[01:11:32] I've got a feeling that you would say those are bad things for democracy.

[01:11:36] Now, she still says we need to get rid of the filibuster.

[01:11:40] We need to expand the court.

[01:11:43] This is not a moderate center left or centrist candidate, but he doesn't have a coherent

[01:11:51] answer for what has actually changed.

[01:11:54] OK, but this is what.

[01:11:56] Yeah, I just want to finish.

[01:11:57] And I want to go back and push back again on this.

[01:11:59] And I love what you're saying because it's like good things to think about.

[01:12:02] But I also think that there's a lot of arguments to be made against it.

[01:12:05] You're saying that Kamala Harris can't come up with a coherent answer about her policy.

[01:12:09] I am so sorry, but I have never watched it.

[01:12:12] I'm thinking about it.

[01:12:13] I've never watched an interview with Donald Trump where he can give a coherent answer about

[01:12:15] anything, really.

[01:12:16] He's sitting up on campaign rallies talking about boats and sharks and electricity in

[01:12:20] the water.

[01:12:21] And when you ask him, how are you going to?

[01:12:23] He said, no tax on tips.

[01:12:25] How are you going to do that?

[01:12:25] We're going to stop taxing tips.

[01:12:27] OK, how do you make up the revenue from taxing tips?

[01:12:30] We're going to put tariff.

[01:12:31] Kamala stole that idea.

[01:12:33] Hold on.

[01:12:33] Two weeks later, she said we're not going to pass.

[01:12:36] Let's let Julius finish here.

[01:12:38] We get to debate the merit of the policy.

[01:12:41] But if we're going to debate the double standard of Kamala has to have a coherent answer for

[01:12:45] every single policy point on her page, which I guarantee she does not know.

[01:12:49] And also Donald Trump does not know half of the shit that's on his.

[01:12:51] Oh, I'm sorry.

[01:12:52] Half of the stuff that's on his page.

[01:12:54] Let's be realistic and say that Donald Trump is also the king of not giving coherent answers.

[01:12:59] If you let him talk, he's going to talk for 20 minutes about something that that doesn't

[01:13:02] even isn't related to the topic.

[01:13:04] So let's talk about double standards.

[01:13:07] I've got one for you on abortion.

[01:13:09] Right.

[01:13:10] Donald Trump, when he ran in 2016, he said that he was going to get rid of Roe v.

[01:13:14] Wade and we were going to ban abortion.

[01:13:17] In 2024, Donald Trump says, I'm not going to pass a ban on abortion.

[01:13:22] Which position is the one that the American voters should believe?

[01:13:27] Because I know what the media is saying.

[01:13:30] Right.

[01:13:30] If Donald Trump says in 2024, we will not ban abortion.

[01:13:34] We will not ban birth control.

[01:13:37] Do you go back to 2016 and say, does he need to explain to the voters why that position of his has changed?

[01:13:45] That's not his position.

[01:13:47] He has absolutely said, I will not ban abortion in 2024.

[01:13:52] That's absolutely.

[01:13:53] He has absolutely been out there and said, this is a state issue.

[01:13:57] I won't ban abortion.

[01:13:58] Come on.

[01:13:59] Are you kidding me?

[01:14:00] That's the hat you're going to hang on.

[01:14:02] First of all, Donald Trump's been all over the place on abortion.

[01:14:04] And when you can't credibly go out there and say that you're not going to ban abortion, but then allow it to go back to the states where they will ban abortion.

[01:14:12] By the way, it's not an it's not a consistent position.

[01:14:16] And first of all, Donald Trump's been all over the place on abortion.

[01:14:19] This is someone who also said when he ran for president while that there should be penalties for women if they have abortions.

[01:14:25] And so I think that's the wrong issue to pick because I don't think there's I don't think it's intellectually a consistent position.

[01:14:30] You can't say it is absolutely fair to say that Donald Trump supports banning abortion.

[01:14:35] You want to know why?

[01:14:36] Because he he wants there to be states that allow that to happen.

[01:14:40] Kamala Harris is talking about enshrining Roe v.

[01:14:43] Way into law and having it be supported.

[01:14:45] There's no contrast on the candidates on that issue.

[01:14:48] That's greater, I think, than on the issue of abortion.

[01:14:50] Donald Trump supports states absolutely banning abortions.

[01:14:54] And there's already bans in states because of Donald Trump.

[01:14:57] Kamala Harris has been clear.

[01:14:59] There's no issue that I think there is greater contrast on in this election than Kamala Harris's support for health care for women, not putting government in between a woman and making that choice.

[01:15:10] And Donald Trump, who wants there to be states that continue to outlaw abortion.

[01:15:14] There's no greater contrast.

[01:15:16] And this is the same Donald Trump, by the way, right?

[01:15:18] That in 2015, when he was running for president, said he didn't want to defund Planned Parenthood while Ted Cruz was saying that we that the U.S.

[01:15:26] government should and not give money to Planned Parenthood anymore.

[01:15:28] And now is advocating for policies that would get that have gotten rid of Planned Parenthoods in 25 different states across the country.

[01:15:35] So, again, this isn't the merit.

[01:15:37] This isn't the merit of the policy.

[01:15:39] It's about how the shift in coverage between him and her.

[01:15:43] In 2015, he was saying that he was not for banning abortion.

[01:15:47] And then now he is.

[01:15:49] And his actions show that when she says in 20 what 2020, I think we should ban fracking and then becomes vice president, gets more information, says, by the way, I was wrong about that.

[01:15:58] I got more information.

[01:16:00] I don't think we should ban fracking.

[01:16:01] We're having the same conversation, but the way we're viewing it is different because of who was saying it.

[01:16:05] And that's what I'm talking about with the double standard.

[01:16:07] Kamala Harris can do something that Donald Trump does, and she gets criticized 110 million different ways.

[01:16:13] But if he does something, it's wait, but Donald Trump said he was going to do that.

[01:16:16] But it's not when that's what I'm really confused.

[01:16:20] I want to keep us moving real quick.

[01:16:22] I think we maybe need to do a bonus episode in two days before the election on issues and hitting the candidates on issues because clearly we have some differences of opinions on this.

[01:16:33] And I appreciate the passion and I appreciate the excitement and jumping in.

[01:16:37] But we do have just a few more, and I want to keep us as close to an hour and a half here as possible.

[01:16:42] I'm going to move us on.

[01:16:43] Yes, no, there's a double standard depending on what side, depending on who you support.

[01:16:47] I think there is a lot we can get into and a lot of different things.

[01:16:51] But thank you for that fiery conversation because I certainly enjoyed it.

[01:16:56] I want to get chat about one of my favorite ladies, Nikki Haley.

[01:17:00] So in an interview just last night, Nikki Haley stated that she has not spoken to the Trump campaign search to Donald Trump since June, but that she's, quote, on standby waiting for his call to campaign for him.

[01:17:11] This was shocking to me that there has not been any outreach to Nikki Haley, who is one of the most respected, highly regarded Republican women on the side.

[01:17:23] That she has said that she would be willing to campaign for him and they have not asked her to do so is such a misstep in my book.

[01:17:30] She went on to say that the Trump campaign needs to look at how they're talking about women.

[01:17:34] This, quote, romance, masculinity stuff borders on edgy to the point that it's going to make women uncomfortable.

[01:17:40] And she goes on and she says,

[01:17:57] I was extremely shocked about all of this.

[01:18:02] I know we haven't seen Nikki Haley.

[01:18:04] I know that we haven't seen her like we've been seeing so many other surrogates, both for Trump and for Kamala Harris.

[01:18:10] But, John, was this as shocking to you as it was to me?

[01:18:14] I think there's definitely places that I would have deployed Nikki Haley.

[01:18:18] As I look at the electorate and where things are going, I think that a lot of times it's overstated the level of support that Ambassador Haley had with Republican voters in Republican primaries.

[01:18:32] There's certainly a difference between people who wanted to vote against Donald Trump again and people who were really Nikki Haley supporters.

[01:18:41] And I think a lot of those people have gone home.

[01:18:43] That being said, I think she's an incredibly effective messenger.

[01:18:46] She's very eloquent in her way of framing the issues.

[01:18:50] So I think that she would generally speaking be an asset.

[01:18:53] But I also tend to think that surrogates are in a presidential race.

[01:18:58] I think surrogates are slightly less important and their impact is overstated.

[01:19:04] So I think, are there places that they could have deployed her?

[01:19:07] Yes.

[01:19:08] Do I think it's a critical missed opportunity that's going to cost him an election?

[01:19:12] I don't think so.

[01:19:15] I don't necessarily know that it would cost him an election, but I would say he is certainly having a women issue and I don't think it could hurt.

[01:19:21] Michael, thoughts?

[01:19:23] I absolutely think it could cost the election.

[01:19:24] I think it's fair to say this.

[01:19:26] I think when an election is going to be this close, I want to set myself up for this standard that anything that's done costs this election.

[01:19:34] And I think that goes to the Harris side and it goes to the Trump side, that anything could cost this election.

[01:19:39] I'm really disappointed by this.

[01:19:41] I'm really disappointed by the fact that there hasn't been more outreach to Nikki Haley.

[01:19:46] I was a Nikki Haley voter.

[01:19:48] I voted for her in the Republican primary this year.

[01:19:50] There's a broad coalition of Haley supporters across this country who wanted there to be more of a role and more of an outreach.

[01:19:59] Becky, you and I have talked about outreach to women and how Republicans are talking about women.

[01:20:03] I think the fact that Nikki Haley wasn't on stage in Madison Square Garden shows exactly what the Trump campaign is about.

[01:20:12] And it shouldn't surprise people that there's such a gender gap in terms of Trump's support.

[01:20:18] The fact that she wasn't on stage, a former governor, former United States ambassador who served in Trump's cabinet.

[01:20:25] She should have been on stage.

[01:20:27] She's a great messenger.

[01:20:28] And if you look about what her criticisms were, the fact that this campaign is finding space for preachers, the fact that Trump's campaign is prioritizing people that want to call Kamala Harris the Antichrist, that they want to elevate people like Tucker Carlson.

[01:20:44] They want to elevate people that are going to talk about Kamala Harris as if she's a prostitute.

[01:20:48] Those are the type of people that the Trump campaign is ensuring has surrogate space in this race and is platformed at a national rally.

[01:20:55] But Nikki Haley's phone calls aren't getting returned or they're not making connection with her and that she hasn't been dispatched.

[01:21:02] Nikki Haley supporters and Nikki Haley has a powerful and I think significant track record and support inside the Republican Party.

[01:21:10] And the fact that she's been sidelined is really sad.

[01:21:14] And I think it's going to be when we do that kind of post-election autopsy and we bring the body in of whoever lost, I think it will have an impact.

[01:21:21] I think everything has an impact at this close of an election.

[01:21:24] And I'm setting myself up for to be judged by everything that Harris does.

[01:21:28] And I think when an election is this close, and it may not end being this close, but is where I think it is right now, flip of a coin.

[01:21:34] I think everything matters.

[01:21:35] And the fact that Nikki Haley wasn't in Madison Square Garden, but some of these other jackasses were, I think shows where the Trump campaign is.

[01:21:43] And I think it's the wrong message.

[01:21:46] Julius, anything to add?

[01:21:48] Yeah, I would just say, I think, again, this goes to both and with Michael and John's points of, I think what John said about maybe a little bit of an overestimation of Nikki Haley's support.

[01:21:57] For sure, I think I would agree with.

[01:21:58] But I think what Michael is saying that everything counts is also still a both and in this situation.

[01:22:03] Because, again, what's the perception about the Republicans or the Trump problem is that they have an issue on abortion, which ignites voters like no other.

[01:22:12] And we've seen that hurt Republicans because they're supposed to be a red wave and they only had a couple of seats majority.

[01:22:18] Right.

[01:22:19] So I think when you have an issue like J.D. Vance saying this country is run by a bunch of sad cat ladies and you have a perception problem with women and suburban women are going to win or lose you this election, probably.

[01:22:32] I think having someone who is really strong in that field and really gets suburban women excited about doing something, it's Nikki Haley.

[01:22:42] And I think it's a massive oversight on the Trump campaign's part to not have her involved in some way, shape or form, even with just that small group of people.

[01:22:52] But, again, I think I agree with John that she wouldn't be maybe a base surrogate.

[01:22:57] She would be trying to bring people in that maybe don't like Kamala, don't like Joe, but aren't really super sold on Trump either.

[01:23:05] I'm going to move us into some later topics to end out the show.

[01:23:09] It is Halloween tomorrow.

[01:23:11] I am very excited.

[01:23:12] My son, however, hated his costume.

[01:23:15] So he is going to be wearing a Packers jersey and going as a football player.

[01:23:20] Child service is calling now.

[01:23:22] Yeah, I know.

[01:23:23] I knew you were going to be super excited about that.

[01:23:25] But we are going up to my sister's house, trick-or-treating with three of my nieces, one of my nephews.

[01:23:31] So it will be a great time.

[01:23:33] Although, can we talk about this crap weather?

[01:23:35] It's been so beautiful all week.

[01:23:36] And now the day that millions of kids are going to be outside, it's going to be awful.

[01:23:41] But it's October in Minnesota.

[01:23:43] What can you do?

[01:23:44] John, I know you have a little one close to my son's age.

[01:23:47] Any costume plans on your end?

[01:23:50] Yes, sir.

[01:23:51] He picked his own costume this year, and he's going to be Woody from Toy Story.

[01:23:56] Yeah.

[01:23:56] Fantastic.

[01:23:56] He's super pumped.

[01:23:58] And this has been telling everybody, be Woody for Halloween.

[01:24:01] Yeah.

[01:24:02] We took the opportunity last night when it was almost 80.

[01:24:05] He painted a jack-o'-lantern.

[01:24:07] Keep sharp knives away from him.

[01:24:09] So that was pretty fun.

[01:24:12] And yeah, we'll see how far he makes it when we go trick-or-treating tomorrow night.

[01:24:17] Michael or Julius, any big plans for you two?

[01:24:22] I am.

[01:24:22] I'm a big Halloween person, so I'm going to be watching spooky movies the rest of the day

[01:24:26] and doing stuff.

[01:24:27] I love Halloween.

[01:24:28] I love the candy.

[01:24:30] I love the atmosphere.

[01:24:31] I just love it.

[01:24:32] My kids are going out, and I'm excited for that.

[01:24:35] And I just, I love, I absolutely love Halloween.

[01:24:37] I love everything about it.

[01:24:38] I love just the candy, the costumes.

[01:24:40] It's just great.

[01:24:41] It's a great time of year.

[01:24:43] And I'm not disappointed that there may be snow because it gives me an opportunity to

[01:24:46] talk about the 1991 Halloween blizzard, which was shortened my last time going out trick-or-treat.

[01:24:52] I love Halloween.

[01:24:54] It's one of my favorite holidays, and I'm so excited.

[01:24:59] Yeah, I was just going to say, I think I'm going to dress up my dog and probably just

[01:25:02] give people candy.

[01:25:04] Yeah.

[01:25:04] That's great.

[01:25:05] But yeah, I think I'm going to, she's a sweet girl, so I'm going to have, give some kids

[01:25:08] some candy in the neighborhood probably.

[01:25:11] Perfect.

[01:25:11] Perfect.

[01:25:11] Moving on to my new favorite topic of the week, football.

[01:25:16] Michael, what are those short standings looking like?

[01:25:21] Becky, I'm focused on defending democracy.

[01:25:23] Democracy's on the ballot.

[01:25:24] Oh.

[01:25:25] Democracy's on the ballot, and sometimes that's what I need to be focused on.

[01:25:29] Democracy's on the ballot, and so I don't have time.

[01:25:31] But tell me where we're at on football.

[01:25:34] We're at, I am tied for second, and you are tied for fifth.

[01:25:38] So second week in a row, I beat you, I picked two more correct.

[01:25:42] So I'm officially two points ahead of you.

[01:25:45] And I know it comes as a real blow to your overall goal in this league to beat me.

[01:25:51] I am sorry to hear that that is not going so well for you at this point, but we'll see

[01:25:56] what next week looks like.

[01:25:58] A lot of games are left after I defend democracy next week, okay?

[01:26:01] A lot of games are left.

[01:26:03] And by the way, it is worth noting, you're tied with your husband.

[01:26:06] I am.

[01:26:07] And John is in eighth place, and Julius is rounding up 12th place.

[01:26:14] Okay, let's relax.

[01:26:15] I have had some busy weeks defending democracy and haven't put my picks in.

[01:26:18] I'm doing a lot more work than Michael and apparently you guys, because I'm defending

[01:26:21] democracy and you guys are.

[01:26:22] Oh, it takes a solid minute and a half, but okay.

[01:26:26] You do that.

[01:26:27] Oh, is that what happened last year, Becky?

[01:26:29] Yes, it is.

[01:26:30] There is discussion on a collusion between me and some other team owners about what's

[01:26:36] going on at a household in Fridley, but that'll be for an offline after we defend.

[01:26:40] Well, I am happy to defend my picks every week.

[01:26:44] All right, Michael, all you.

[01:26:46] We got, I think, we chatted a little bit about some of the backlash you've gotten as being

[01:26:50] a Republican for Harris.

[01:26:51] And we chatted a little bit about some maybe mean tweets or mean DMs.

[01:26:56] So maybe enlighten us to some of the joys that partisan politics can play.

[01:27:03] I was, and this was a show idea from a friend of all of ours.

[01:27:06] I won't say his name on air, but a friend of all of ours said that I was, saw what was

[01:27:11] going on social media and thought that I should, we should start doing a Michael reads mean

[01:27:16] tweets or just a general email feedback discussion on what were, what people, what type of feedback

[01:27:21] we're getting both on the podcast and decisions in life.

[01:27:24] If Julius don't worry about your swearing earlier, because this is going to be an explicit episode

[01:27:28] based on some of these tweets.

[01:27:30] So I went out with a tweet that I had voted early in this election for Kamala Harris and

[01:27:35] Tim Walls.

[01:27:35] And for some reason that tweet really took off.

[01:27:38] I had got over a million impressions on the tweet and I want to just highlight a couple of

[01:27:44] cherry ones of them.

[01:27:45] This guy really went after me a few times and he said, quote, I'd live to cut your nuts

[01:27:50] off.

[01:27:50] You ignorant piece of dog crap.

[01:27:52] You don't deserve any type of official, maybe official, not worth the price it would take

[01:27:57] to get rid of you.

[01:27:58] That guy was, it's always great hearing from undecided voters.

[01:28:01] That guy echoed in a few times.

[01:28:03] This was another one.

[01:28:05] Then you voted for agents of Satan.

[01:28:07] It's never right to vote for evil.

[01:28:09] And that's what your closing is.

[01:28:11] Kamala is a tyrant and a closeted Satanist.

[01:28:14] Trump's on God's side as July 13 proves.

[01:28:17] Now you're locked out of heaven forever.

[01:28:19] But I got to tell you something.

[01:28:21] It was 50-50 whether I was going to get into heaven.

[01:28:23] I did have a meeting with my priest last week.

[01:28:25] I did have confession.

[01:28:27] So I think I'm in good standing for the next time I go.

[01:28:30] But it's 50-50 whether I go up or down.

[01:28:32] I got a lot of messages about people, a lot of people wanting to cut off my genitalia and

[01:28:37] other hate things.

[01:28:38] I will have to say this to you.

[01:28:39] I will have to say this to you.

[01:28:40] I don't have thin skin.

[01:28:42] I'm not trying to invite hate.

[01:28:44] But boy, oh boy, that tweet really took off.

[01:28:48] And it is just astounding to me the amount of time that people have to go after stuff.

[01:28:52] And it's a discussion for a later episode.

[01:28:54] We've gone long today.

[01:28:55] And I appreciate that.

[01:28:57] But I think this is an episode, a segment that we should do going forward.

[01:29:00] Some viewer mail, some feedback, and generally what people are saying about me.

[01:29:05] But boy, has it been fun.

[01:29:07] It's been a fun time.

[01:29:08] I appreciate you sharing.

[01:29:09] I'm sorry that you are on the rough end of that stick there.

[01:29:12] But I'm glad you're able to find a little humor in that and have that thick skin.

[01:29:16] I love the idea of continuing down this going forward.

[01:29:20] I certainly can go back to the archives and pull some up from my time deep in partisan politics.

[01:29:25] I will say that back in my first term working for Congressman Emmer, we used to collect some

[01:29:30] of the mean tweets.

[01:29:31] And I had a bulletin board that I'd post some of them up on.

[01:29:33] And every once in a while, Emmer would come back and ask me to read some of the mean tweets

[01:29:37] to them because sometimes you got to be a little humbled and see what some of the folks

[01:29:41] out there say.

[01:29:42] And every time it just cracks me up that somebody takes time out of their day to write that.

[01:29:48] Not only to think it, but to type it out and hit send.

[01:29:52] And that is a sad life for them.

[01:29:55] Actually, what's been great is it's not just been texting.

[01:29:59] My phone number apparently is out there too.

[01:30:01] So my phone has been blowing up quite extensively.

[01:30:04] DMs are full.

[01:30:05] And I did something I did last Monday.

[01:30:08] I wasn't planning for this.

[01:30:09] I put my phone on do not disturb unless it's like roughly 100 contacts that I cultivated.

[01:30:15] You guys are all on the list.

[01:30:16] You can get through.

[01:30:17] But I went and looked at my voicemail a couple of days ago.

[01:30:20] I had 37 messages, which is pretty high for me in an afternoon.

[01:30:24] And I realized that some folks were getting past the goalie.

[01:30:27] And I'm not going to share the audio messages.

[01:30:29] Just let me say this to you.

[01:30:31] The creativity isn't just limited to the text.

[01:30:35] Boy, oh boy, are some of these audio messages great.

[01:30:37] But I don't want to start playing messages that I get.

[01:30:40] But I just want to say in closing, this is hands down my favorite episode.

[01:30:44] Every one of my episodes I cultivated and I enjoy.

[01:30:47] This one is hands down my favorite episode.

[01:30:49] You guys, John and Julius, you guys threw the heat.

[01:30:53] Becky did a great job being devil's advocate and not supporting my side,

[01:30:57] which is wonderful, which she's great at.

[01:30:59] But this is why we do this podcast.

[01:31:01] And I couldn't imagine Becky not doing this with you,

[01:31:04] but also having the opportunity to listen to John talk and listen to Julius talk is just a treat.

[01:31:10] And I just want to thank all you guys for doing this today.

[01:31:12] Okay.

[01:31:13] All right.

[01:31:14] Before we go.

[01:31:15] Thanks, John.

[01:31:16] We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the breakdown with broad,

[01:31:19] Corbin, Becky.

[01:31:20] Before we go, show us some love for your favorite podcast by leaving us a review on Apple podcast

[01:31:24] or on the platform where you listen.

[01:31:25] You can also leave a review on our website or follow us across all social media platforms

[01:31:30] at BB break pod.

[01:31:32] The breakdown with broad,

[01:31:33] will return this week.

[01:31:35] Becky might not know that,

[01:31:36] but we are returning this week.

[01:31:37] Stay tuned for more details.

[01:31:38] Thanks for listening.

[01:31:40] Bye.

[01:31:40] Bye.

[01:31:41] Bye.