[00:00:12] Welcome to The Break Down with Brodkorb and Becky, a weekly podcast that breaks down politics, policy, and current affairs. I'm Becky Scherer. And I'm Michael Brodkorb. We are back once again, but once again, not the show we were hoping to record this week. We were originally scheduled to record yesterday, but as we planned to record, talking about anything political seemed to ring hollow and meaningless.
[00:00:36] So, like everyone, we are going to focus our conversation today on yesterday's tragic shooting at Annunciation Church in Minneapolis. Thank you for joining us today. So, Michael, we were scheduled to have a typical show, talk about politics, what's going on in the state, in the country, interview a state representative, one of the leaders at the legislature.
[00:01:01] And as things developed, it just, I think we both agreed, didn't feel right. It, like I said, felt meaningless to talk about or quibble about anything political or any news of the day other than this tragic shooting. So, Wednesday, August 27th, started with a shooting at 8.30 a.m. at Annunciation Church as students were attending an all-school mass.
[00:01:25] At the, because of the shooting, 17 were wounded and two young children lost their lives. We've, there's been a lot of mass shootings. They always hit hard. They hit particularly hard, I think, when they're, when they're young, when they're kids. And this is literally in our backyard. And it's really tough. They were just kids. They were just starting school. One of the, I think, their first week of school.
[00:01:54] And something that I don't, my kids aren't in school yet. I know my nieces just had their open house. And the excitement that comes from young schools starting, or young kids starting a new school year. And their lives, and so many, are forever changed by this. As things were developing yesterday, where, where were you? Did you find out on Twitter? How'd you find out, and what were your initial thoughts? I first heard about it on social media.
[00:02:22] And then, then it developed from there. It was horrific to see the events, to see it play out. My kids go to Catholic schools. And so, which was interesting for a number of reasons. Number one, the way the school's starting now, schools are starting, a lot of schools are starting prior to Labor Day, which is different than when we were growing up, at least when I was growing up.
[00:02:47] And so, I had two kids that were getting dropped off at school when the news of this was going on. And it was just incredibly unnerving, not only to drop kids off when they were in the midst of a school shooting. My compliments to law enforcement, Eagan police were in school parking lots, and they had a presence there, which was reassuring as we were dropping off our kids.
[00:03:11] But I have another child who was in lockdown because of the events that occurred at Annunciation Church. And it's really tough. School shootings are always tough, but I want to speak to the heart about just how tough this was.
[00:03:26] And my thoughts and prayers are with everyone who had a family member, a student, a friend, anyone who knew someone at Annunciation Church at that school that went through that event of yesterday. I can't imagine the pain, the anguish, the fear, the trauma that you're experiencing right now. I know, Becky, we are going to talk about this responsibly. We're going to talk about it in raw terms, how it impacted us.
[00:03:55] But I think we also are going to be very good at acknowledging that, thankfully, our kids weren't there. But that doesn't mean that there's not a ripple effect and other things that we were impacted by that I'm certainly going to talk about today. But again, my thoughts and prayers are with everyone impacted directly by the events yesterday. And what I'm specifically referring to are people that have their children at that school, they know someone there who live in that close to that school in that community. It was it was very unnerving.
[00:04:25] It was very tough yesterday and personally tough because the school schedule of my kids dropping two kids off, knowing that there's a school shooting going on. And that was I think by that time, the person they announced that the person had been taken out was deceased, I think, by that point. But there was dropping a kid off at school at just before 11 o'clock yesterday morning. There was a lot of discussion in our house about, you know, the events that were going on, what was going on and then dropping them off.
[00:04:55] But again, I was reassured to see law enforcement in the parking lot and having a presence there, but also knowing that as I was dropping other kids off, one of my children was in lockdown at a school. And then to then pick them up later in the day and to see law enforcement from another agency in the parking lot protecting them. It is simultaneously reassuring, but it is also terrifying. It is also terrifying.
[00:05:21] So yesterday was a very challenging day for a lot of parents. But since this is my podcast that I co-host with you, I get to speak from my perspective. Absolutely. And I definitely want to get more into that in a little bit here. I do want to walk through kind of what we what we know, what we found out in the last 24 hours, 36 hours here since this incident. We do know that the shooter was deceased.
[00:05:48] Just initial reports that I've seen indicate that after conducting the shooting, as law enforcement were closing in, he she the shooter did commit suicide. A shooter is named as Robin Westman, 23 years old. It reported that specifically targeted Annunciation Church and had graduated grade school from Annunciation in 2017.
[00:06:13] Robin's mother was a secretary at Annunciation Church for five years, retiring in 2021. As what we've found out so far, the shooting happened outside of the school in through the windows to again, the children and adults that were gathered for mass there this morning were shot while in their pews through stained glass windows. It is reported that the doors were barricaded from the outside.
[00:06:41] A couple of the doors were barricaded from the outside. Allegedly, these as well, you know, so far, the guns were purchased legally and recently indicating that the shooter passed background checks, which we'll chat more about as well. Using a rifle, shotgun and pistol that had with had on had. I don't know if all were used, but those were the guns that were there at the scene.
[00:07:07] And yeah, I mean, it's just to know that these kids are going to do my best to not get emotional. I think it's one of the first school shootings that has happened since I have kids. And it just hits a little differently. It's always been hard. It's really scary to think about what's to come and what can be done and what we should do. And I know that's going to be part of our conversation. So I'm going to try to keep myself together here as we go through this.
[00:07:38] So that's kind of the facts of the situation. As it laid out, we said then, you know, there was an incredible law enforcement response. Everyone is praising the students and the teachers for acting quickly, for getting under their pews. They have had shooting or lockdown drills in their school, but it's been said that they haven't had that in the church. I have seen some stories of an individual, a student whose friend jumped on top of him.
[00:08:06] The friend got shot, has survived, but he praised his friend for jumping on top of him while he laid under the pews. And just devastating that these lives are forever changed. Obviously, the families of those killed and injured, but all of these such young kids is just tragic. So we watched as things evolved. We watched the mayor come out and speak.
[00:08:35] We watched law enforcement come out and speak and give us the facts of what they knew. And then we heard about a scheduled video that came out from the shooter. So I want to chat about that a little bit. But anything that came out initially that surprised you, that I didn't cover, that you want to mention or discuss? No, but just a couple of things I want to speak maybe a bit directly to you. First and foremost, it's okay to be upset because I'm upset.
[00:09:04] It's going to be impossible to not be upset this episode. And sadly, we've had a lot of these episodes this over the last few months in Minnesota. And it's okay to think about it differently when you become a parent. I think about it differently. I began to think about a lot of things differently when I became a parent. And what I saw yesterday, what other people might not see, is I saw kids running out of the school wearing the exact same uniforms that my kids wore.
[00:09:34] Looking very similar. And that could have been my kids' school at one point when they were that age. And I think about that. It's difficult to not see that. And there are people I know who send their kids there. I know people who, because of the Catholic community, people... There are kids that my kids know that went to that school and have been...
[00:09:59] And there's teachers and other people that we know because of the Catholic community that go there. And so you watch things differently. And you see things differently. But I just want to say to you, it's okay to think about these things differently because you're a parent. Because that's the way I think of them. I think of my kids instantaneously. And so normalize that today. And so also, this is a safe space. It's okay to cry. Because I've done it probably too.
[00:10:27] Oh, God, we're in good company, I think. We join millions of parents, non-parents, individuals around the country who feel the same way. I want to kind of chat through... I don't know that law enforcement has released an official motive. But I want to certainly walk through what we've seen come out from the shooters' manifesto videos that they scheduled to be released the morning of the shooting.
[00:10:57] They include many racist slurs. They include many... A lot of anti-religious language across many ideologies. There was writings that were not in English, in different codes, in different languages that have been translated. But it comes down to showing a very disturbed individual. A very... They wrote about violent fantasies about killing children.
[00:11:26] Stating they wanted to be a, quote, scary, horrible monster standing over these powerless kids. They glorified the Sandy Hook massacre. However, said he was morbidly obese at a young age with Adam Lanza, who conducted the Sandy Hook massacre, and other school shooters. The shooter wrote... I'm going to read some quotes. I have wanted this for so long. I am not well. I am not right. I am a sad person. Haunted by these thoughts that do not go away.
[00:11:55] I know this is wrong, but I can't seem to stop myself. I am severely depressed and have been suicidal for years. Only recently have I lost all hope and decided to perform my final action in this world. Again, another quote is, In regards to my motivation behind the attack, I can't really put my finger on a specific purpose. It definitely wouldn't be for racism or white supremacy. His notebook read, I don't want to do it to spread a message. I do it to please myself. I do it because I am sick.
[00:12:24] And then additionally, before we kind of chat through some of this, they also wrote messages on their gun and ammo, praising other mass shooters, including the murderers responsible for massacres at Sandy Hook, the Tree of Life Synagogue shooting, and the mosque shootings in Christchurch, New Zealand. One said kill Donald Trump. One said six million wasn't enough, referencing the Holocaust. And there were calls for Israel to fall and burn. It's a lot.
[00:12:53] As I was explaining and talking with my kids later in the day, I said that this one is going to be different.
[00:13:03] And the reason is because of the level of detail and the amount of work that was done to detail in a manifesto, in these videos, what this person was thinking about as they were preparing and about to do this.
[00:13:24] The level of information that we know about what was going through this person's mind from their perspective is profound. And it's detailed. And I hate to use this word, but he, the person presented a lot of thought and a lot of material as to why they were doing this in terms of, I'm not talking just about the written record.
[00:13:49] I'm talking about what this individual said on camera, the detail put into the guns and what he, what they wrote on the guns. It was significant. And this individual left a lot of material for people to examine and come to the conclusions, I think, as to why he did this, why they did this.
[00:14:15] I want to speak to the identity of this person for a moment, because I want to hit, I'm going to hit some stuff head on about what we know about the shooter, about their identity and who they are. Because that has been an issue that came out pretty quickly was that this person, this person was born, born a man. And then at, in the early 2000s had his name changed to Robin. So when we refer to Robin Westman, I think what has been discussed is Robert Westman is how he was born.
[00:14:45] There's going to be a discussion over the coming days, weeks, and months about mental health. And I just want to remind our listeners of something, which is that mental health is, to me, is the largest issue, the largest contributing factor to these types of shootings and these types of events. It is the issue that I think is the most significant. Obviously, guns played a role in this.
[00:15:11] But I wanted to make sure that what we didn't fall into the trap of is not discussing, as we go through this step by step, as to who this person was. They were, it was Robin as who they went by. And there's been a lot of discussion on that online. I don't know to what degree it's important to discuss other than it encapsulates this, to me, a mental health component. This is obviously someone who was struggling.
[00:15:39] And they were struggling in a very, very deep way. And mental health plays a factor in that. I don't want to discuss this from the perspective of that because somebody is transgender, that they can't have a firearm. I'm worried about people who have mental health problems. And the Second Amendment and the Constitution applies to transgender people.
[00:16:07] And for anyone to go out there and say, to advocate for the removal of the Second Amendment from transgender people, or to say that the Constitution doesn't apply to them, is simply wrong. I say that as someone who is passionate about the Second Amendment. And that's also a subject I'm going to talk a bit about today, is the Second Amendment. But I just want to be clear that I don't think you and I are trying to dance around the identity of this person.
[00:16:35] I think we're going to discuss it proportionally and reasonably. And I think we're going to assign and discuss this issue from all sides. But I just want to get it out of the way. This is someone who was born, a boy, had his name changed. I don't know to what degree that impacted yesterday's decision. But what's clear to me is he had a mental health problem because he discussed it. This person discussed it.
[00:17:02] And in their videos, the pain that they went through. And I just want to remind people that mental health is an issue for everyone. It is not just in the transgender community. It affects every person. So when we talk about mental health today and the importance of it, we're not going to jam it in to one group and to one category. Because everyone is impacted by mental health. Absolutely agree.
[00:17:28] I mean, I know it is something we're seeing a lot of, you know, as much as we don't want these things to be political, they always get political. You know, there are a lot of people jumping on the fact that the shooter, like you said, was born a man, identifies as a woman, went through an official name change to reflect that. There's a lot of people jumping on the script or the language that they wrote their manifesto in.
[00:17:56] And then whether that indicates that they were part of MAGA, there are some individuals who show that he, you know, the shooter was, they were pro-Palestine and say that that means they identify with the left. In the manifesto itself, as I just read, they wrote that they don't have one thing to point it to. I don't think we have any way, if they did not know their motive, I'm not sure that we're going to be able to come up with one nice little motive to put in a little box.
[00:18:24] I'm attributing it to left, right, center, transgender, anything other than that this was a disturbed, mentally ill individual who clearly had a lot of struggles, a lot of obsessions with mass shootings and a lot of other things likely going on in their life or at least in their brain that they were struggling with on a day-to-day basis. So thank you for clarifying that. I think we can chat a little bit more about this.
[00:18:51] One thing that I did want to share when we chat about the mental health part of it is, well, I guess before we get that, I want to chat a little bit through some of the response and some of the statements that we saw from some of our elected officials. We saw, starting with Governor Walz, and let's kind of chat through this as we go. He wrote, Minnesota is heartbroken from the officers responding to the clergy and teachers providing comfort to the hospital staff saving lives. We will get through this together. Hug your kids close.
[00:19:19] As we chat through this, some folks like to attack our elected leaders and how they respond to different things. And obviously, if we're chatting about this through a political angle, obviously, I'm not a—I don't—I didn't vote for Governor Walz. But what I saw yesterday when he was at the press conference was a dad, a coach. I saw somebody who was as heartbroken and broken up about this as you and I are on this.
[00:19:46] And somebody who is working through this and trying to figure out, just like the rest of us, where we go from here. And I can certainly respect that and how tough it must be going through this. I'm sure you watched the same press conference I did where you see him in the back. And he was clearly having a hard time. Absolutely. I'm going to probably be more pointed in some of my commentary about the responses yesterday or the events leading up to this.
[00:20:16] But I thought Governor Walz's comments were spot on. I also think a statement he made about how this will get—this will be forgotten by the national media and that we're going to—Minnesotans here are still going to be dealing with this— is something I want to talk about more at a later point because I think that it's significant. These are happening—the reason why the media is here right now is because of yesterday's event.
[00:20:44] But if there was a shooting at another school in another part of the country that was comparable or worse, all the media would be gone. And they would be dealing with the next tragedy, the next shooting and the next situation. And so we have the attention of the national media only until on this particular subject there is another one. And that's really sad. But it's just, I think, the truth of it.
[00:21:13] I would say the same about Jacob Frye. You know, I saw, unfortunately, some folks saying that he's just taking advantage of this because he's up for re-election and, you know, hoping that this will boost his re-election bid, which is just sickening that anybody would think that he found any joy and pride in this situation that happened while he was governor or was mayor of Minneapolis.
[00:21:38] He had some really good statements that he—between the press conference and written and on social. But one that I thought was great was, we are a Minneapolis family. Don't think about these children just as someone else's kid. Think of them as your own. This was their first week of school. They should be laughing and goofing off in the hallways right now. They should be learning and playing with their friends. I think about his comments and I think about what you said at the beginning, where you think about this more because it's your kids. And that's natural.
[00:22:07] I think his message of thinking about this, thinking about this as you would your own, is so important. It's one of the issues that I think we're having here is that until it impacts you, you don't think about it. And if we had more people like you, like me, and particularly to Mayor Frye's comments, who recognize and they think about this not as somebody else's kid but their own, we'll start looking at this problem more differently.
[00:22:34] I will say, and I don't want to steal any thunder, but his comments about prayer. I'm going to probably talk more on this podcast episode about two subjects that I generally don't, which is religion and guns. I'm a proud Catholic. I pray every day. And I completely related to what Mayor Frye was saying about prayers, because in response to these types of tragedies, what you hear is the standard thoughts and prayers. Okay.
[00:23:03] And I think he's right to say that's not enough. These kids were literally praying when this was going on. And so if your response to this shooting is to say, is to just say thoughts and prayers and just move on, that's not enough. I pray all the time. I pray every day, multiple times a day. I will say a prayer and I do so. And the events of yesterday won't change that.
[00:23:29] But I think it's reasonable for someone to say, to finally call out and say, if your response to this event is just to say thoughts and prayers, it's not enough. Because I have said probably more than once on this podcast, my approach to religion is like exercise. I want to know it's a part of your life, but I don't want to see you do it. But in this episode, I'm going to talk more about my faith. I'm Catholic. I pray all the time, multiple times a day.
[00:23:58] I have a lot of conversations with God where I pray. And I did a lot of praying yesterday. And praying is an important role. But in response to yesterday's tragedy, the only policy initiative can't be thoughts and prayers. And I thought Mayor Fry did a fantastic job in recognizing that these kids were praying at the exact time they were targeting. And I thought it was a very powerful statement he made.
[00:24:26] And in all honesty, one of the things you have to be careful for in research is if you listen to the totality of what he said, he meant exactly opposite of what people are claiming he's saying. And that's why I find it so fucking disingenuous. Yes. I don't know if you agree with me, but I just. Yeah. I mean, I think that I think you and I both understand that they're him saying that is we need to do more, not saying stop, pray.
[00:24:56] Right. That that was not the message. And, you know, as we I guess maybe we start there. Maybe we maybe we're ready to kind of chat about this, about what has been done, part of the the general conversation about guns and schools, what can be done, what is going to be done, what should be done and just our thoughts on it. But I guess we'll start. I should start with a tweet that you shared with me right before this.
[00:25:23] Governor Walz has ordered the deployment of state law enforcement personnel to support public safety efforts around schools and places of worship in Minneapolis. More details to come. The reporter had had tweeted before we kind of chat about the substance of that. Do you think.
[00:25:38] That is a forward thinking action or do you have any reason to suspect that is because of potential ongoing threats or copycat possibilities or anything more than just being proactive here? I think there is an absolute concern that there's ongoing. There's ongoing threats. It's being so I think it's I think it's all of the above. I think there are schools. Let me just say this to you.
[00:26:07] Schools have schools are soft targets. And the reality is, is that that needs to change. And that's part of the discussion that we need to have. And one of the things, sadly, and I mean this not to be proud or boastful, but I'm happy that we have this podcast because I think you and I can figure it out exactly how we feel. We may agree on some issues. We may disagree. But there's not a one. There's not one answer to solve this type of stuff.
[00:26:36] And so the hardening of soft targets, making schools more secure is absolutely part of the equation. And it's unrealistic for anyone to think that's not an appropriate step. I want my kids and every kid in this state to be safe.
[00:26:55] And the safest, I think the safest environment, the quickest way to make them safer is to make the soft targets of school more is to harden them and to make them less accessible and less to be seen as less of a target for someone who is deranged and mentally ill like this person wants. I'm going to play my role as devil's advocate as we go through some of this as well. I don't disagree.
[00:27:25] I absolutely think that is something that needs to happen. I think, you know, we talked about school resource officers and the decision to pull them from schools last year or the year before. So there's conversations, obviously, surrounding that. They need to reinstate them. We have heard conversations about metal detectors, armed guards, arming security.
[00:27:49] Obviously, there's different checkpoints and, you know, having to have a code or something to get past a certain thing, which I think a lot of schools do have something of that sort. So when we talk about school safety, to play devil's advocate, not sure that any of the options would have changed anything in this specific incident. Right. I mean, this was a shooting from the outside. Yes. And this was at the church. I mean, in the interest of the church and at the church, to be clear, this was at the church.
[00:28:20] But schools, the design, the architecture of schools needs to change. Schools need to be changed in different. The reality is that they're different. And so I think it is, you know, seeing that physical presence outside. I mean, we had lengthy conversations about school resource officers. I will tell you, Becky, you know, dropping my kids off at school yesterday and seeing the Eagan police in the parking lot was reassuring.
[00:28:47] But then later in the day, seeing at another school where I was picking up another child and seeing them still there. I mean, it is both reassuring and alarming. But the bottom line is having spaces, having these soft targets needs to change. And there needs to be more of an awareness about this stuff. But you are right in playing and saying and always being focused on, OK, what will it actually do?
[00:29:13] We I saw a tweet, I think you and I chatted about it a little bit, about how in 2023, Minnesota Catholic bishops asked walls for 50 million. So nonpublic schools could increase security despite the surplus. It went nowhere. And then this tweet that we were discussing went on to say, talk about guns and banning rifles and that sort. Obviously, the million dollar question is, what is the answer?
[00:29:41] I don't think we have the answer, but we have a conversation about some of the things that are being discussed. Do you think when it comes to school safety, what is the most likely? What is the most responsible? And I don't want to say cost effective because we shouldn't be thinking about cost effective. But anytime we're talking about taxpayer dollars, we have to think of what is going to be do the most good for the most reasonable, affordable, allowed amount of money when a budget is being put together.
[00:30:11] Do you think arming security or metal detectors is something that will be part of the conversation when session comes back? It should be. And let me let me talk a little bit about that for a second. I go to courthouses all the time. When I go to a courthouse in this state and I have to go for research or when I was writing a book and I was covering a trial, I have to go through a metal detector. You can't bring a knife or a gun into a courthouse.
[00:30:41] It's common sense, in my opinion, that schools need to be hardened. We need to accept the reality we're in. I don't think the judges and the court staff and the court administrators are more important and the members of the public that are there are more important than people that are at our schools. The reality is, is that we have carved out this mindset that schools need to be open.
[00:31:08] And there are people who I think feel that adding security to a school, reasonable security to a school, metal detectors and other things and armed guards will impede the learning process. I disagree with that. And I think that one of the most substantive changes that can be made is the entire philosophy and belief that school administrators, those who design schools and stakeholders have in how our schools are structured.
[00:31:36] How are they designed and how are they built and how much of easy targets they are. And doing simple, structural things to the schools to make them less accessible and to make the learning environment safer are things that I think Minnesotans and stakeholders shouldn't fully embrace. Absolutely fully embrace. I completely agree.
[00:32:01] And I think, you know, we hear arguments of people saying that it will change the students if they have to do this. It will, like you said, impede their learning or how they think about going to school. I just it seems like there's so many places in life that you go to the Twin Stadium, to a Vikings game, to the airport. So many places that you go that you have to go through those that I don't think I don't think it's an obscene thought for a child.
[00:32:28] I just I feel like, you know, a new era of kids that if that start school, like perhaps when my children start school, that it's just there and part of it. I just don't think they would think twice about it, that it would have any impediment to their learning or their daily life there. You just prepare for it. You make sure you can go through seamlessly and you go through and then you start your day.
[00:32:53] And there's just, you know, like you said, that added assurance, hopefully, that they will be safe or safer because of it. And then when we turn to arming security officers, where do you stand on that? I went to the state fair this week and in order for me to get into the state fair, I had to go through a metal detector. And there's security guards all around me. Did that change my experience at the Minnesota State Fair?
[00:33:22] Not one bit. It didn't change the experience. And so, again, I'm going to keep going back to this, that we live in a dangerous time, in a dangerous society because of a whole variety of factors. And having spaces where stakeholders have decided or they have the position that we can't be realistic about the threat that's there just simply doesn't make any sense to me.
[00:33:48] The safest way to protect kids at schools is to ensure that there is a layered approach to security and that easy access inside the school to children is prevented in many ways as possible. And ensuring that they're in a safe environment where there's metal detectors, school resource officers. And I'm also talking about the physical design of the schools. All of that needs to be rethought.
[00:34:16] And if you're not open to having that conversation and you're going to say it's just guns or it's just mental health, you're part of the problem, in my opinion, because it's just it's not realistic. You know, I think there's certainly an argument by many who oppose guns or the Second Amendment that say adding more guns aren't the answer.
[00:34:36] And I will preface this by saying I think if we look at a spectrum of Second Amendment supporters, I think that you're I don't necessarily think I'm one that's all the way to to the right gung ho. As as some Republicans are on the Second Amendment, just because it's I'm not a gun owner. I haven't gone through gun safety. I've gone to shooting ranges and know I've gone through the initial gun safety that they do.
[00:35:03] But it's just not something that's as much a part of my life. But I do believe in the Second Amendment. I do support the Second Amendment. And so to those people, I think that this comes into the conversation of when we talk about some of the gun control measures that are about is that there is a significant difference between law abiding, lawful gun owners and criminals.
[00:35:25] And those wishing to do ill will and maliciously use their gun for crime, for death, for murder. There's there's a big distinction there on that. And so I think that I'm not exactly 100 percent sure that that's the answer that armed guards are. I think that having security in schools is really important.
[00:35:48] But I do think that there is certainly a layer of, in my mind, of security that does add with a lawful, trained security officer. Being able to protect anybody wishing to do ill will with a gun or a knife or whatever it is in those schools. I can see your point. I mean, I think about all the places that I go where there is security, where there is a physical security presence.
[00:36:16] And I say, my family has a season's tickets to the Minnesota Vikings. I've never had an incident at a Vikings game. Sports events and other types of things. Never had any issues. I think of all the places where I go that there is a metal detector. There is someone with a security presence. I simply think it makes sense that there is some level of, you know, school resource officers, physical presence. I am not advocating for teachers carrying handguns.
[00:36:45] I'm not saying that at all. It's not where I'm at. I'm just saying that there needs to be a security presence, a layered security presence that is at every single school to ensure that our kids are safe. And I don't think that a Vikings or a Twins game or any types of sporting event is more important of an environment than our schools are.
[00:37:10] And I know Representative Elliot Ingen has introduced legislation related to school safety. I think we should have him on at some point.
[00:37:18] I know some people in law enforcement from some of the work that I've done in writing a book and other things that have really done a lot of work into the physical structure of schools and how you can enhance the security and make the learning environment safer while recognizing that it needs to be a learning environment and balancing the threat assessment that comes from schools.
[00:37:43] I want to move into kind of chatting about some of the gun control measures, if that's all right with you. Of course. You know, I know all over social media, on my end at least, there were a lot of people speaking towards gun control now. Now we need, you know, changes need to be made. And I think, again, I believe that there are some changes that may need to be made.
[00:38:13] But I think this is where it's also kind of that sticky situation of what if when we just break down, let's start by just this situation, this incident, this shooting in Minneapolis and folks using it as a catalyst for gun control. But in this one, the guns were purchased legally and recently. But we do have a red flag law. Can you chat a little bit to your knowledge on that and that wasn't apparently in play here?
[00:38:43] Yeah. And let me let me talk about some of the conversations I had yesterday related to this because I had what's gotten a lot what got in a lot of initial focus is this person was transgender. In all honesty, I'm not waking up today and saying I'm scared of transgender people. I'm I am concerned about people that have a mental health issue and have access to guns. That is my concern.
[00:39:06] And so what I want to talk about when we talk about gun control is from my perspective, the biggest concern that I have is people who have mental health issues who are accessing firearms. But the reality is, how do you fix that? How do you stop that? Because just think about this for a second. Absent someone being adjudicated, meaning that they've had their they've been deemed to be they've been institutionalized. They've had an issue where a court has rendered that decision.
[00:39:35] Someone is going to be able to buy firearms. And so what I think people need to understand is that there's not some secret database that where people can get checked out in this type of way. It raises a whole bunch of legal issues, too. And that's what I think is is interesting. And as I walk people through yesterday, I think they were surprised about the level of checks that are done.
[00:39:56] If someone has depression, if someone has anxiety, if someone is bipolar, if someone has a whole variety of mental health issues, none of those are disqualifying from having a firearm in any way, shape or form. Unless they're adjudicated in any way. Unless someone has determined them to be unhealthy or unsafe. Now, we have in Minnesota extreme risk protection order, ERPO.
[00:40:26] And so that was an issue that I discussed, sadly, with my children yesterday and my family. I said, this is the process. So if someone, if I had access to firearms and someone was concerned about my mental health relative from someone that associated with me or knew that they can petition the court. And there's a process by which there can be an examination of my mental health interviews and other things and court orders that can be done.
[00:40:53] A lot of them are ex parte where it's kind of an emergency situation. But one of the things that I certainly want to talk about more in this episode is that I don't think that this individual who did this, did this quietly. And I'll be very surprised if it comes out that no one knew. And I think that what I tried to discuss with my family yesterday is something that I always talk about. Strong mental health. Okay.
[00:41:20] And it's something that I preach with my kids, preach with my family, preach with my wife and preach with everyone. I'm always talking about a strong mental health. And people, we need to be mindful of that.
[00:41:32] And so in relation to the firearms, I don't know of a fix, a law fix or something that needs to be done from a gun perspective that wouldn't violate a number of privacy and constitutional issues that would prevent someone from getting access to a gun. I don't know of a gun. And I'm going to welcome that kind of thoughtful discussion.
[00:41:57] But I do not believe as tragic and as horrible and as scary as yesterday was, I'm unclear as to what type of gun fix, some type of firearm fix that would have prevented yesterday. Because by all accounts, this person was over the age, passed every test, passed every check, and got the firearms.
[00:42:18] And as much as I'm an advocate of the Second Amendment, I cannot in any way, shape, or form understand, aside from just avoidance and ignorance and not paying attention, how that individual amassed that collection of firearms inside that house where he lived and was having the type of mental health struggles that he was dealing with. And no one connected the dots and didn't say anything.
[00:42:42] And I think one of the situations in this is I think, as I said to my kids and my family yesterday, you have to be nosy. Absolutely. I'm so torn of which where I want to go next. I want to come back to the mental health component because I think it's huge. I think we're going to hear a lot more about it and how it relates in this situation.
[00:43:01] I do want to stick just, though, on the guns because I think you made a number of good points, which you always do, about I, too, don't know what proposed gun control measures would have changed anything here. There was not an assault rifle, a semi-automatic. There was not anything of that sort used. Laws were broken to commit this crime.
[00:43:28] The thing, two things that I want to mention is the jumping to conclusions. I think that our elected officials have a hard time sometimes when they're put in these situations to react. And I think so. I want to say this and say that I don't want to be too hard sometimes on the quick reactions. But in these situations, I think it's really important to gather all the facts. And I was a little frustrated with Senator Klobuchar.
[00:43:55] She was on with Esme Murphy yesterday, and she did jump straight to that. We need to figure out the automatics, which may have not been used here, is a quote she said, but clearly shouldn't be in the hands of kids. And even though some of our more conservative Democratic senators support some age limits, again, wouldn't have been. This kid was, you know, she talks about being over 21 to get guns. He was 23.
[00:44:18] It just felt a little icky and opportunistic to try to force some of these gun control measures into a case that they don't apply. And so I think that, you know, I just anytime we're talking about these, I feel like we need to be kind of thoughtful in how we gather the information.
[00:44:34] But one thing I did want to say is I saw a tweet, a really disgusting tweet and disgusting situation, if true, that an every town activist in an orange shirt was outside with a sign confronting parents and students as they were leaving Annunciation yesterday. Not the time, not the place. There are you and I are fully behind having good, tough, hard conversations with people we agree with, with people who we disagree with. But that is not the time and place. And I was really disgusted to see that.
[00:45:04] Yes. And yes, I was too. And let me say, by all accounts, he likely had semi-automatic weapons, all of which were legal. I'm not aware that any weapon or any gun that was seized yesterday wasn't legally obtained. My frustration is, is that there is not simply one answer to this. Right. Guns is not the only problem there. It is a combination of factors. And I'm interested in solving this problem and providing a platform that there can be a discussion about it.
[00:45:33] But there is not one fix. Hardening schools is not the only answer. Taking guns is not the only answer. I also don't think it's ever going to happen. I am someone who carries a gun every day. And you know why I carry a gun every day? Because exactly of what happened yesterday. And I would love nothing more than to not carry a gun. I carry a gun because I need to.
[00:46:02] Because I unfortunately have the type of life experiences that require me to carry a gun. Do I wish I had to? Absolutely not. I would love nothing more. And I'll probably get criticism for saying this. I would love nothing more than to be able to move around society, go out, go to the grocery store, go to the movie theater, go places, and not have to wear a handgun. But I wish I could, but I can't.
[00:46:31] Because I know what's out there. I know what I've experienced, the threats, the intimidation, and the things that I've experienced. But I also think just about the general public and the dangers that are out there. I would love to not wear my handgun every day. But that's just not the reality. And as much as I want that to be the reality, the truth of the matter is the responsible thing that I've determined for my personal safety, my family's personal safety, is that I carry on a regular basis and I train and I understand how to use firearms.
[00:47:00] I wish that wasn't the case. But that is the reality in which I live. And for anyone to go out there and think that just taking away guns is going to solve this problem, it's not. It's just simply not. And it's superficial. And it's not a credible reaction to this. Absolutely.
[00:47:18] And I think that's where it's so hard at times because I think that we, this is one of those issues that we have the left and the right looking at something so differently and not wanting to compromise or work together in a way that could make meaningful change on this. Because you're right. Guns are never going to be completely gone away. They're taken away.
[00:47:44] It's just not something that I ever foresee happening, nor should it happen. I just, there's something does need to be done to protect our children, to protect all of us. I'm very hopeful that that happens sooner than later because I am terrified. I saw a tweet that you retweeted today.
[00:48:06] Aaron Rupert, who is always has some, some good ones and tweeted exactly something that is on my mind. He said, one thing that really hits you when you're directly affected by gun violence in schools is that there's nowhere to hide. Public, private, religious, whatever. Unless you're going to homeschool your kids, we live in a world where they're at risk of something like this happening. Which is terrifying. Correct. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. It absolutely is terrifying.
[00:48:35] But I wish I didn't have, that I didn't feel that it was responsible to me to have to go and do this. But the truth of the matter is we live in a dangerous time, a dangerous society. And I think it's important that people be their own bodyguard and that they protect themselves. And I also am appreciative that I represent a group of responsible gun owners that are statistically the least likely to be reckless or dangerous with their firearms.
[00:49:03] I train, I shoot on an incredibly regular basis with the hope that I never, ever need to do it. But I'm a part of a group that recognizes what's out there. But I would also, again, say to you, I would love to not have to worry about that. But the reality is that's not the world we live in. It's just not the world we live in.
[00:49:26] I do want to come back to, before we end here, to talk about the mental health component of this individual in particular and the situation at large. I am with you. You said you don't believe that he did this quietly. It seems very unlikely that an individual this, as they even wrote, morbidly obsessed at a young age with Adam Lanza and other school shooters.
[00:49:51] It does not appear that they were, it was a small fascination. It was a recent fascination. They write that it has been a long time, that it has been large, that it spans school shootings, mass shootings in the United States, at schools, at religious places of worship, across the globe.
[00:50:12] And then I come back, an article I read from a fellow student shared that in seventh grade, he would put up his hands and praise Hitler, that he would write in code so nobody could understand it. They recollect sharing or believing that there were some potentially dangerous, odd, unique situations surrounding Rob and Westman, but said, I was just a child. What was I supposed to do?
[00:50:41] In seventh grade.
[00:51:24] In seventh grade.
[00:51:41] Despite knowing he had some mental health issues and they were basically negligent and their actions participated or were involved in him being able to conduct the shooting at the high school there, killing four individuals. So I don't know that that's the case here. I don't know. I have no facts. We have heard nothing about any adult other individual being involved, being charged.
[00:52:09] But again, we will find out more. But speak to me a little bit more about what you were chatting with about that, about how you don't believe this individual did this quietly. I don't think there's any type of consistent track record that shows that these school shootings involve someone who just snapped. Someone who got cut off in traffic and just decided to target someone. There is in nearly all of these cases. What's learned in the investigation afterwards is the amount of planning and work that has been done.
[00:52:40] And that was, I was taken away by yesterday when I saw, again, only word that I can think of, the thought that he put into, that this person put into what they were doing. The detail, the level of timing a YouTube video, recording it, writing out the text of the manifesto and then the video, and then putting that level of detail into his, into the weapons, coming up with those messages.
[00:53:08] The artistry that that person used, that showed a tremendous amount of grotesque thought and planning, grotesque artistry that was done. That just didn't happen overnight. And one of the discussions, and I've long been, and will always remain to be a very strong advocate of everyone having good mental health and good resources to mental health when they need it. We all need it at points in our lives.
[00:53:35] And something that I've tried to do with my kids and with my family and with particularly men in my life, friends that I know, is to de-stigmatize mental health in talking to someone and being with someone. I believe that what we're going to learn is that there were concerns inside the family about this individual and people just didn't act.
[00:53:57] And one of the messages that I gave to my kids yesterday and to my family, and I'm going to give, I'm going to keep giving to people and I'm going to give on this podcast and I'm going to give to you, Becky. Be nosy. If you're concerned, say something. If you're concerned, say something. We need to start caring more about the people closest to us and checking in on their mental health. And it's not that complicated.
[00:54:21] Someone who is struggling and has access to firearms is someone that it's okay to discuss. It's okay to talk about this. And I say that as someone who is a passionate advocate of the Second Amendment, but also someone who if we got to the point where I didn't have to walk around with my handgun anymore, I'd be the first one to just leave it at home. If that's the way we felt. So I'm realistic about this stuff.
[00:54:48] And just as much as I want to talk about, I think guns being a part of the solution. I think the biggest issue here is mental health and the fact that I don't think this stuff happens in a vacuum quietly. Again, the grotesque artistry that this person used to write the notes in the various languages and then the details on the guns, the amount of time that was spent.
[00:55:12] This individual spent a lot of time honing that artistry, that grotesque artistry that they used. And I have a difficult time believing that someone in his family didn't know that this was going on, that this was a troubled individual that needed some help.
[00:55:30] And what I think we need, one thing I want to platform here is to say as someone who wants people to have access to mental health and also simultaneously advocates for the Second Amendment, people need to recognize that that can be a significant combination. And people need to talk about that. And I want people to be concerned about their family members. And if they're concerned, to talk about it, to talk to them, talk to law enforcement.
[00:55:57] Avail yourself of the law that we have in this state where you can raise concerns. Don't shut people out. Don't turn a blind eye into this stuff because I don't think that this happens in a vacuum. And what I mean by that happening is I don't believe that this is someone who I would love to be proven wrong if there's a statistic out there.
[00:56:19] But I don't know of any school shooting or any type of mass casualty event that began by someone just getting cut off on the road and then snapping and deciding to do this. What we've learned is an extensive amount of planning. And that planning doesn't happen in a cabin in the woods like Ted Kaczynski. It happens sometimes in suburban homes or in homes all across the country. And those homes are not occupied by just one individual, family members who can speak up.
[00:56:47] And we need to empower people to feel comfortable to speak up. And that was a conversation I had at length. We sat down for dinner last night and I had with my kids and said, you need to feel empowered with your own family members or people that you see that if you know they have guns and that you are concerned about their mental health, these are the things that you need to do to speak up.
[00:57:10] Because I believe if you look at all of these cases, that is going to be one of the most critical steps that always gets missed. I mean, I have nothing better to say. I think that is a great thing to remind ourselves of, to teach others of, to be aware of our surroundings, of our communities, of our networks, of the people in our lives. Obviously, we should always be aware, whether they have guns or not, of individuals struggling.
[00:57:38] I mean, if you're struggling, ask for help. If you know somebody's struggling, try to be that help. Provide them with the resources. Do what you can. But as you say, especially if there's the combination of someone who is struggling, somebody who is disturbed, somebody who is making questionable actions or comments or research or writings or anything of the like, and they have access to guns, certainly do something. Share it with someone.
[00:58:07] I know this might be putting you on the spot, but if you had one direct line or connection to put with somebody who came to you and said, who should I call? Where should I go? What's your recommendation? What do you think that we can help educate people on what to do in this? Is it to call 911? Is it to call the non-emergency line?
[00:58:32] Is there a direct place that we can help direct folks to? Well, it's great that you asked that because I was going to mention it. The FBI has resources that they can provide. First and foremost, if it's an immediate emergency, always call 911 and report it immediately. I would encourage them to interface with their local law enforcement, their local sheriff.
[00:58:56] But we will include some links in this episode to some of the resources that the FBI has prepared and tools and resources that people can use to talk about this. I also hope in the coming weeks we have guests like Brian Strauss around to talk about this and what people can do. I just want to just say again that I think the most reckless thing that can be done in the aftermath of this is for someone to go out and say that there's an easy answer or that answer involves only one subject. It's not guns. It's not mental health.
[00:59:26] It's not school resource officers. It's a combination of everything. And one more point I want to make about firearms. I had a great conversation with somebody yesterday who said it's about the guns. I said, okay, I encourage them to avail themselves of the scope and numbers of how many firearms we have in this country. By estimates, there's 400 million firearms in this country. It's simply not going to happen.
[00:59:54] You are simply not going to remove guns from the culture and from the United States in any type of substantive way. What we can do is, I think which is most important, is be open on this podcast and others to discussing all of them. I come to this as someone who is a passionate advocate for the Second Amendment but recognizes the balance that there needs to be with people with mental health.
[01:00:23] I also will say to you, yesterday is the exact reason why I carry a firearm. Because I know that there are people out there exactly like this individual. And I understand the steps that I've taken to use a firearm, be licensed to carry it, to be proficient in it. I understand how someone can just float just under the radar.
[01:00:47] And that's why my reaction is to not say that guns aren't a part of it, to not say that that can't be part of the discussion. But again, my biggest concern, or I think the immediate need is, is people looking out for each other. And the people in your sphere of influence, Becky, the people in my sphere of influence, are family members closest to us. Because again, I go back to, this isn't someone in a cabin. This isn't like Ted Kaczynski and the Unabomber.
[01:01:15] This is someone who cultivated and festered over time and was clearly dealing with issues. And from the court records that I've seen, a mother, a father, and siblings. And people could have been paying attention to this more. And that's where some of the responsibility, I think, lies. It lies in all of us. To be more thoughtful and considerate, but to also be more self-aware of the mental health of people around us.
[01:01:42] And that is something I really wanted to hammer home today, is thinking about the mental health. And I think, from my perspective, that's a pretty good place to end. I think we need to, as we go forward, we're going to, if things maybe evolve or we find out more information, we'll be sure to discuss it.
[01:02:04] I'm hopeful that we can put partisan politics aside and come together to discuss all options on the table, to do what we can do to protect our children. It's just devastating that, like I said, that this happened. It happened in our backyard.
[01:02:25] There are hundreds of lives, not thousands, in this community, forever changed and traumatized by this incident. And it's just so, so heartbreaking that these two young students that were praying in their pews, attending their first week of school for the school year, lost their lives by clearly a very disturbed individual.
[01:02:54] And I hope we can do better. I hope we can do something to make sure that these school shootings, I want to say don't ever happen again. I know that's just unfortunately not the case. But if we can do what we can to reduce them, to minimize them, to protect our children in any way possible.
[01:03:17] I mean, I just, it's so frustrating and heartbreaking and devastating and just at a loss for where we go from here. I know we all are. We all want action. And I just hope that as this happens in our backyard, that here in Minnesota, even if the rest of the world, the rest of the country forgets about this incident this week, that we don't and we do something here and something can be done. Great points, Becky. And it is a great way to end it.
[01:03:45] I want to end with something about my week. My week started on Monday with talking to my sister on the phone, knowing the fact that my niece was in lockdown at a college where she's attending and because of threats of a school shooter. And that's how my week started this week. It was then soon followed up by having to call the police because there was someone outside my house wearing a Guy Fawkes anonymous mask and acting in a threatening, concerning way.
[01:04:15] And then on this subject, we live in dangerous times. We live in various dangerous times. I am thankful and appreciative that the threats of a school shooter at my niece's school turned out to be a false call. And there's a pattern of them going on right now at campuses all throughout the country. But there is an ongoing threat in society that we all need to be aware of.
[01:04:36] And we need to start recognizing that we all have experiences, but we need to come together and we need to talk about these things in the best ways that we can and be thoughtful and considerate and to be thoughtful on social media, to care for each other more. And one of the things I just want to end with is also just social media. A crisis social media is the worst. It's absolutely the worst. There's such type of ugliness.
[01:04:59] And again, I would encourage people to take some time off social media, do other things, connect with people, have the type of real conversations that are going to help us all get through this stuff. Because I honestly don't believe social media is going to be where this is going to be solved. It's going to be solved by us caring and talking about each other and getting involved in each other's lives more because this impacts all of us.
[01:05:26] And sadly, it impacts us in a whole variety of ways, even if we didn't have kids that go to that school. So we will end on that. Becky, I want to thank you. One final plug. It's an awkward transition, but I just want to remind people that we have a fantasy football pick-em league. Rumors are Becky's going to be making an attempt to repeat. I don't know if she will. I already got my picks in, baby. Come on. How can you have them in already? Why would you make them this soon?
[01:05:57] Because I just got an alert to make my picks. I'm also kicking off of my family fantasy football draft this year at my house tonight. I'll have siblings and others over for a family fantasy football draft. I'm looking to dominate in both leagues. You know, last year, I think it's important to spread the wealth and give you an opportunity to win, which was nice. And I've let my sisters win a few years. But this is a year I'm really hoping to make my mark and return to the top. So I want to thank you. The links will be provided if people want to participate.
[01:06:27] Becky, we've had a lot of tough episodes over the last few months, and I'm so appreciative. As I advocate for mental health, it's so important to my mental health that we have these types of space. And I know I feel better nearly every time, aside from your food takes and football takes, talking with you about these subjects. I always feel better. I appreciate you being here and creating this space with me, okay? Back at you. Yeah. We want to thank you all for listening to this episode of The Breakdown with Brad Corbecki.
[01:06:56] Before we go, show us some love for your favorite podcast by leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or on the platform where you listen. You can also follow us on our website and across all social media platforms at at BBBreakdown. The Breakdown with Brad Corbecki will return next week. Be safe. Take care. We're thinking about you all. Bye-bye.