A break down with Royce White campaign advisor Darrin Rosha

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Breakdown with Brodkorb and Becky, a weekly podcast that breaks down politics,

[00:00:16] policy and current affairs. I'm Becky Scherr. And I'm Michael Brodkorb.

[00:00:20] Today we are chatting with Darren Rocha to break down the Royce White campaign. Darren

[00:00:24] was a delegate to the MNGOP state convention as part of Team White, placing his name

[00:00:29] into nomination on the floor. He serves as legal counsel and advisor in Royce White's

[00:00:33] senatorial campaign. And Darren is a practicing attorney here in Minnesota who spent more

[00:00:38] than 33 years serving in the National Guard. With Darren, we will break down Royce White's

[00:00:43] campaign today and recently obtaining the endorsement for the Republican Party of Minnesota.

[00:00:49] We will chat through all things financial, break down some recent issues with both fundraising

[00:00:52] and spending. And we will continue the conversations Michael and I had last week on

[00:00:56] White's conduct on Twitter and overall combative and questionable persona. Thank you for

[00:01:01] joining us and enjoy the show. We are excited to be joined today by Darren

[00:01:07] Rocha, who has done a variety of things that we'll talk about. But he's currently serving

[00:01:12] as an unpaid advisor slash legal advisor to Royce White's US Senate campaign. And

[00:01:16] that's why we're having him on here today. But I've known Darren for 22 years,

[00:01:21] I think, in a variety of ways. And Darren, why don't you introduce yourself to our

[00:01:26] listeners and maybe explain how you and I first crossed paths?

[00:01:29] Yeah, you said my name accurately. So I appreciate that. And I have kind of a

[00:01:35] relaxed life, at least I thought I did for a while. Last year, I retired from the Army

[00:01:40] National Guard, my last assignment out of Missouri, but 28 years with Minnesota.

[00:01:44] And thank you for your work and service. Thank you. I appreciate that. I

[00:01:47] appreciate your support working on getting my late 80s mullet back. It's going to

[00:01:52] take me a while. But and then I also stepped off the university board. I just

[00:01:56] finished an eight year stint after a six year stint back in the 80s and 90s.

[00:02:00] And so I had all this time. I've learned my kids middle names, getting to work

[00:02:04] on projects around the house. And then now, now this spring here got involved a

[00:02:08] little bit with this fairly unusual US Senate campaigns. Have a little office

[00:02:12] out in the western suburbs out Long Lake, Orono and got a few kids and a

[00:02:17] wife out and independence with a couple horses and we got a pretty good

[00:02:21] gig set up out here.

[00:02:23] Sounds wonderful. When did we first cross paths politically?

[00:02:26] I grew up in the first district. Oatana is my hometown, Steel County,

[00:02:30] just outside of town. And my congressman and political hero as a youngster was a

[00:02:36] young congressman named Tim Penny. He was a rural conservative Democrat,

[00:02:41] which is doesn't really exist much anymore. But he he was very popular in

[00:02:45] that district, even though it was a primarily Republican district. I had a

[00:02:48] law office over in St. Paul on Selby with my very dear friend, Chris

[00:02:52] Crutchfield and a third partner, Michael Givens. And Tim used to stop

[00:02:55] by and when stop by to say hi once in a while. And when Jesse Ventura to

[00:03:00] whom he was an advisor when Governor Ventura announced that he was not

[00:03:03] going to seek a second term, Tim had stopped by and asked if I was

[00:03:06] interested in helping or working with him on his campaign. And I said I

[00:03:10] would be willing to put a sign in my yard or shut down my practice

[00:03:15] and work for him full time. I didn't have a wife and kids at the

[00:03:17] time, shut down my practice and work for him full time or anything

[00:03:20] in between. And so he asked me to come in. I was his deputy

[00:03:22] campaign manager and has follow him around to various events. And there

[00:03:26] was this handsome young political operative for the GOP named Corb that

[00:03:30] was walking around with a character. You said it was Waffle Man. I

[00:03:34] thought it was Waffle Boy, but Waffle Man somebody dressed up.

[00:03:37] I wasn't. I wore a chicken suit in the 98 race. I was not in

[00:03:41] costume in 2002, but we did have a Waffle Man.

[00:03:47] You were the guy. You were the emissary insisting that Waffle

[00:03:51] Man had the right to be present in those locations. Yes. And

[00:03:55] I would run into you there and we would give each other a bit of grief.

[00:03:57] Good natured, of course. And I had tried to convince the

[00:04:01] campaign that somebody should come out with a super soaker filled

[00:04:04] with the syrup of truth and soak Waffle Boy. But their legal

[00:04:08] counsel at the time was concerned that it could lead to some kind

[00:04:11] of an assault claim. And I said I'll pitch in for the

[00:04:14] judgment because I think it'd be worth it.

[00:04:16] That would have been fantastic. That would have been so great.

[00:04:19] What was it? The syrup of truth?

[00:04:22] Yeah, whatever. Syrup of truth.

[00:04:24] And that's fantastic. That would have been, oh my goodness.

[00:04:28] And knowing the person who played a Waffle Man or maybe it was

[00:04:31] Waffle Boy, but Waffle Man, I think they would have liked

[00:04:33] the syrup. I think it would have been a nice little addition

[00:04:35] to the day. But that wouldn't have been great.

[00:04:37] True. It would have been real maple syrup. It would have

[00:04:39] been high quality. We would not have gotten, we wouldn't

[00:04:42] have skimped on Waffle Boy.

[00:04:43] So that's great.

[00:04:44] But alas, it didn't happen.

[00:04:46] But yeah.

[00:04:47] Yeah. And then we've had, and I will just say to you as

[00:04:50] I was doing opposition research for the party at the time,

[00:04:52] Tim Penny was the candidate that was the most, we were most

[00:04:56] concerned about because we had just, I'd worked on the 98

[00:04:59] race and I've been, I was with Coleman.

[00:05:02] And then this time around seeing Penny was just a juggernaut

[00:05:05] and it was very concerning to us.

[00:05:07] And if you remember in late August, we had Tim in the

[00:05:10] high forties.

[00:05:11] Yep.

[00:05:11] And he was very much in the lead and he took some

[00:05:14] positions that were a bit different than I had recalled.

[00:05:17] And I was especially concerned because in the first

[00:05:20] district, because they had supported him for so long that

[00:05:22] any alteration was going to cause some, there would be

[00:05:25] some kind of a loyalty issue.

[00:05:27] Right.

[00:05:28] And so we did see some of that and he was definitely

[00:05:31] the target of both sides.

[00:05:32] I had told the, I told the team at the time that

[00:05:36] look, Palente is our opponent.

[00:05:37] It's Roger Moe for all that he had, all the success

[00:05:41] that he had in state politics, he was not going

[00:05:43] to really outpull Skip Humphrey.

[00:05:45] And part of why I think Ventura won is because the

[00:05:48] two strongest political figures from the two major

[00:05:51] parties were running against each other.

[00:05:53] Coleman and Skip was getting 70% as AG candidate, right?

[00:05:57] And he maxed out in the twenties.

[00:05:58] So it really seemed that that was the challenge, but

[00:06:03] as we were about three weeks from the election,

[00:06:05] neither Palente's camp or Moe's camp were even

[00:06:08] talking about Penny anymore, which indicated,

[00:06:10] cause obviously the, Penny as the independence

[00:06:13] party candidate had far fewer resources.

[00:06:16] And then the other party candidate, other candidates

[00:06:18] did, and I think I still have a tremendous amount

[00:06:20] of respect for Tim and thought that he ran a

[00:06:22] campaign that he felt was very true to his

[00:06:24] perspective on things.

[00:06:25] But as we know that Palente won with a strong

[00:06:28] plurality and served a couple of terms.

[00:06:30] So it's ancient history now.

[00:06:32] It's an interesting time.

[00:06:33] Yeah.

[00:06:33] Tim Penny will always be someone that I

[00:06:36] instantly think of as a real thought leader,

[00:06:37] someone who took positions independent of

[00:06:40] partisanship and just wanted to stake out a

[00:06:42] claim of trying their beat to get solutions.

[00:06:44] And I hope, I don't, I hope that type of

[00:06:47] idea hasn't left politics completely because

[00:06:50] I truly believe I was 22 years ago.

[00:06:52] I had a little more hair, but, and was

[00:06:54] much more partisan, but as I've gotten a

[00:06:56] little older and not as much hair, my

[00:06:58] partisanship has waned and I've become

[00:06:59] much more of a identify more with the

[00:07:01] solutions outside of the partisan reigns.

[00:07:03] I hope he's doing well.

[00:07:04] And I hope that there's still a place in

[00:07:06] politics for candidates like that to come at

[00:07:09] some point.

[00:07:10] I think that certainly having more ideas is

[00:07:13] better.

[00:07:13] And I, you and I see it very similarly

[00:07:15] with respect to Tim.

[00:07:16] I just, I think he's been a great role

[00:07:18] model for those of us that grew up right

[00:07:20] behind him as an, kind of an integrity

[00:07:22] master and a thought leader in that

[00:07:24] respect.

[00:07:24] And yeah, he, and he's gone on to be a

[00:07:27] strong public servant in Southern

[00:07:28] Minnesota ever since.

[00:07:29] So a lot of respect for the man.

[00:07:31] Help me, Darren, you had, you were a

[00:07:34] supporter at the state convention of

[00:07:36] Royce White and there's been some news

[00:07:38] that's been generated about Royce White

[00:07:40] since he's gotten endorsed.

[00:07:41] And what we really try to do on this

[00:07:43] podcast, Becky and I have really carved

[00:07:45] out this space of just being thoughtful

[00:07:47] conversations.

[00:07:48] And I want to just give it over to

[00:07:49] you to explain your role with the

[00:07:51] campaign and how you see Royce White

[00:07:53] and maybe help explain to us and to

[00:07:56] some of our listeners, maybe what

[00:07:58] we're not seeing that you're seeing,

[00:08:00] because I do know your reputation.

[00:08:03] I do know your record.

[00:08:03] I do know the type of politics that

[00:08:05] you staked out.

[00:08:06] But before I get into that, I'd

[00:08:08] just like to give you the floor and

[00:08:10] offer your perspective and take

[00:08:12] and how you see this race shaping up.

[00:08:14] I appreciate the opportunity and

[00:08:16] honored to be asked to come and

[00:08:18] visit with you guys today.

[00:08:19] So like I said, I was taking things

[00:08:21] easy and backing off on even a lot

[00:08:23] of things with kind of the public

[00:08:26] dynamic with the university or more

[00:08:28] generally, but springtime comes

[00:08:30] around and I even consistent with

[00:08:32] why I'm listed in the military

[00:08:34] in the first instance is I do

[00:08:35] believe that we all have a role

[00:08:36] to play.

[00:08:37] And so even like with partisan

[00:08:38] politics, even though I imagine

[00:08:40] it's pretty hard to find anybody

[00:08:41] that's perfectly aligned with any

[00:08:43] political party.

[00:08:44] When you think about the range of

[00:08:45] issues that come up, I've been for

[00:08:47] the last 15 years, I've been

[00:08:49] active with a little more than

[00:08:50] that caucusing with the

[00:08:51] Republican Party.

[00:08:52] And in my younger days, as

[00:08:54] I said before, I was a

[00:08:55] conservative rural Democrat or

[00:08:57] I guess I said Tim was, I was

[00:08:58] as well and even sought public

[00:09:00] office as a Democrat many years

[00:09:01] ago. But I've been caucusing

[00:09:03] with the Republican Party.

[00:09:04] My general feeling without going

[00:09:06] into any specifics is just that

[00:09:09] our whole world has shifted

[00:09:10] quite a ways and to the point

[00:09:12] where a lot of the rural

[00:09:13] conservative Democrats, well,

[00:09:15] and some even have gentlemen

[00:09:16] like Steve Wenzel, Senator Steve

[00:09:18] Wenzel, former legislator,

[00:09:20] now caucuses with the

[00:09:21] Republican Party because we're

[00:09:24] I think that just the

[00:09:24] alignment had moved so far.

[00:09:26] So anyway, so I've been

[00:09:27] active with that and I feel

[00:09:28] to keep the system running,

[00:09:29] people do have to participate.

[00:09:30] So I was my own Senate

[00:09:32] district, I was the

[00:09:33] parliamentarian.

[00:09:34] I was asked to chair another

[00:09:36] Senate districts BPUU

[00:09:37] convention.

[00:09:38] And then I also was

[00:09:40] parliamentarian for the third

[00:09:41] congressional district

[00:09:42] convention and mostly just

[00:09:44] because I'm not mentally

[00:09:45] prepared to say no when

[00:09:47] people ask, I've got to

[00:09:48] prepare better to be

[00:09:50] able to turn people down

[00:09:52] because it's there goes a

[00:09:53] Saturday.

[00:09:54] And but anyway, no, I

[00:09:55] think it's important that

[00:09:56] people participate.

[00:09:57] And so I was at three

[00:09:58] conventions and all three of

[00:09:59] them, this gentleman of

[00:10:02] fairly significant physical

[00:10:04] stature who comes into these

[00:10:06] conventions.

[00:10:06] And it was a name I knew

[00:10:08] because as a gopher fan,

[00:10:10] I remember with clarity how

[00:10:11] excited we were when we

[00:10:12] actually got the top guy

[00:10:14] as a recruit for the

[00:10:14] gopher basketball team.

[00:10:15] He never did on a

[00:10:16] playing for the team.

[00:10:17] But so I was familiar

[00:10:18] with his name from 15

[00:10:19] years ago or so, whatever

[00:10:20] it is.

[00:10:21] But he came in and somewhat

[00:10:23] of an extemporaneous way

[00:10:25] gave some very

[00:10:26] charismatic speeches.

[00:10:28] And with the fairly

[00:10:30] traditional Republican

[00:10:32] delegate set up, got

[00:10:34] standing ovations at all

[00:10:35] three of them.

[00:10:36] And I was really impressed.

[00:10:37] I and even the way that

[00:10:39] he addressed issues, it

[00:10:40] didn't feel like a typical

[00:10:42] canned essential casting

[00:10:44] candidate.

[00:10:45] It was somebody that came

[00:10:46] in and talked with some

[00:10:47] passion in somewhat of

[00:10:49] a mirror image of a

[00:10:51] wellstone.

[00:10:51] If you ever got to see

[00:10:52] Paul's people, he just

[00:10:53] really had a way of

[00:10:54] moving people.

[00:10:55] And so I thought that

[00:10:57] was really significant.

[00:10:58] And after the third

[00:10:59] district, I went up and

[00:11:00] introduced myself for

[00:11:01] during that convention.

[00:11:02] I went up and introduced

[00:11:03] myself to Royce and

[00:11:05] we exchanged contact

[00:11:06] information.

[00:11:07] And so a few days after

[00:11:08] the convention, we had

[00:11:08] a chance to talk and we

[00:11:10] talked a bit about his

[00:11:11] campaign set up because

[00:11:12] as Michael, I worked on

[00:11:13] setting up the penny

[00:11:14] campaign.

[00:11:14] We got that up and

[00:11:15] running pretty quickly.

[00:11:17] And I wasn't really

[00:11:18] familiar with much

[00:11:19] about the fifth, his

[00:11:20] fifth district run a

[00:11:21] couple of years earlier.

[00:11:22] I guess I hadn't

[00:11:23] wasn't even aware that

[00:11:24] it happened.

[00:11:24] It shows you how sort

[00:11:25] of partitioned we can

[00:11:27] be.

[00:11:27] I'm out here on the

[00:11:28] West Metro.

[00:11:28] I wasn't really paying

[00:11:29] attention to the fifth

[00:11:30] district race.

[00:11:31] And so we talked about

[00:11:33] how things were going,

[00:11:34] what is what his

[00:11:35] perspective was.

[00:11:36] He has relationships

[00:11:37] with people that I

[00:11:38] don't necessarily align

[00:11:39] with that.

[00:11:39] I know I'm not really

[00:11:40] opposed to them and I

[00:11:41] don't it's a different

[00:11:42] group of folks.

[00:11:43] We when he talked

[00:11:44] about his support from

[00:11:46] Steve Bannon, I actually

[00:11:47] had to his name.

[00:11:48] I knew he was from

[00:11:49] the Trump camp, but I

[00:11:49] had to look him up

[00:11:51] in Wikipedia to know

[00:11:52] exactly who he was

[00:11:53] and what his background

[00:11:53] was and so on.

[00:11:54] But we talked about

[00:11:55] what it would mean if

[00:11:56] he were to run, what

[00:11:58] it would mean if he

[00:11:58] were to secure the

[00:11:59] endorsement and how

[00:12:01] that could change the

[00:12:02] dynamic because most

[00:12:03] people have written off

[00:12:04] the Klobuchar race as

[00:12:06] being unwinnable for

[00:12:07] the Republicans.

[00:12:08] That means very strong.

[00:12:10] Her numbers have been

[00:12:10] very strong.

[00:12:12] And but again, I

[00:12:13] remember as a young

[00:12:14] person, Rudy Bosch

[00:12:15] was unbeatable and

[00:12:17] that's why they the

[00:12:18] Democrats at the time

[00:12:19] when I was part of

[00:12:20] them, part of the

[00:12:22] group at the time,

[00:12:22] even at the state

[00:12:23] level, we ended up

[00:12:25] with this obscure

[00:12:26] college professor from

[00:12:27] Northfield named

[00:12:28] Wellstone and that

[00:12:29] came in to run

[00:12:30] against the unbeatable

[00:12:31] sitting Republican

[00:12:32] senator.

[00:12:33] And so things can shift.

[00:12:34] Things can change.

[00:12:35] And my feeling was

[00:12:36] that the party was

[00:12:37] going to have to do

[00:12:38] something unconventional

[00:12:39] and because again,

[00:12:41] it's been 30 years

[00:12:42] and this was part of

[00:12:43] my nomination speech.

[00:12:44] It's been 30 years

[00:12:45] since a Republican

[00:12:46] statewide candidate

[00:12:47] has hit 50 percent.

[00:12:49] It's been 16 since

[00:12:50] a Republican has won

[00:12:52] and that was the

[00:12:53] second time that

[00:12:53] Pawlenty won with

[00:12:54] plurality.

[00:12:55] And obviously there's

[00:12:56] a real challenge for

[00:12:58] Republicans on a

[00:12:58] statewide basis to

[00:12:59] win a race of that

[00:13:01] to win a statewide race.

[00:13:03] So it was going to

[00:13:03] have to be somebody

[00:13:04] that could not only

[00:13:05] get people motivated

[00:13:06] in the traditional

[00:13:07] areas, but somebody

[00:13:08] who would potentially

[00:13:09] have the ability

[00:13:09] to get the ear of

[00:13:11] communities that

[00:13:11] don't normally

[00:13:13] receive the

[00:13:13] Republican message

[00:13:14] or listen to it

[00:13:15] or believe in it.

[00:13:17] And so my

[00:13:17] communication with him

[00:13:19] led me to believe

[00:13:20] that he has that

[00:13:21] capacity.

[00:13:22] He has that potential

[00:13:23] to be able to

[00:13:24] run somewhat of

[00:13:24] an unconventional

[00:13:25] campaign and reach

[00:13:26] people that

[00:13:26] wouldn't normally be

[00:13:27] reached.

[00:13:28] The elephant in the

[00:13:29] room, no pun intended

[00:13:30] of course, is that

[00:13:31] he's got an

[00:13:32] unusual background

[00:13:33] and he's got some

[00:13:34] there's a bunch of

[00:13:35] stuff.

[00:13:35] And I have a

[00:13:36] feeling I'll continue

[00:13:37] to learn stuff

[00:13:37] that I didn't know

[00:13:38] before just along

[00:13:39] with the rest of you

[00:13:40] as we go and

[00:13:41] as campaigns tend

[00:13:42] to have that impact.

[00:13:43] But I look at Royce

[00:13:44] and he is so

[00:13:45] different as far

[00:13:46] as a candidate.

[00:13:47] We have very

[00:13:47] close friends in common.

[00:13:48] My former law partner,

[00:13:50] his father delivered

[00:13:51] Royce as a baby,

[00:13:52] as an infant,

[00:13:54] and his mother

[00:13:54] used to babysit

[00:13:56] my former law

[00:13:57] partner's

[00:13:57] younger siblings

[00:13:58] so that their families

[00:13:59] have known each

[00:14:00] other out of Rondo

[00:14:00] and so on.

[00:14:01] But Royce is,

[00:14:03] he's had a life

[00:14:03] that none of us can really

[00:14:05] most of us,

[00:14:06] I should say,

[00:14:06] can't really relate to.

[00:14:07] He was raised

[00:14:08] by a single parent

[00:14:09] in the Rondo neighborhood

[00:14:11] and at 17 years old,

[00:14:12] he was thrust

[00:14:13] onto the national stage

[00:14:14] as a lot of people

[00:14:15] thought was the top

[00:14:16] high school basketball

[00:14:16] player in the nation,

[00:14:17] not just in Minnesota.

[00:14:19] And one wouldn't be

[00:14:20] surprised that

[00:14:21] one might make

[00:14:21] some decisions

[00:14:22] in those early years

[00:14:23] without depending

[00:14:24] on what kind of guidance

[00:14:24] and support he had.

[00:14:26] And so I didn't

[00:14:28] see those kinds

[00:14:29] of challenges that he ran into

[00:14:31] and has run into,

[00:14:31] and some of them

[00:14:32] are still lingering

[00:14:33] because we can talk

[00:14:34] about the specifics about it.

[00:14:35] But I didn't think

[00:14:36] that they really

[00:14:37] were a reflection

[00:14:38] of any kind of a moral

[00:14:39] or ethical problem,

[00:14:40] but just more a matter

[00:14:41] of facing challenges

[00:14:43] that most of us

[00:14:44] don't have the opportunity

[00:14:45] to face.

[00:14:46] And sometimes

[00:14:47] he made great decisions

[00:14:48] and had a big impact.

[00:14:49] Mental health is now

[00:14:49] a part of the NBA

[00:14:50] collective bargaining agreement.

[00:14:51] I don't think he gets

[00:14:52] much credit for that,

[00:14:53] but he was the one that

[00:14:55] I think was the vanguard

[00:14:56] on that.

[00:14:57] And then some other challenges,

[00:14:58] such as some financial

[00:14:59] and other workings that I know

[00:15:01] if I was facing those kinds

[00:15:02] of opportunities and numbers

[00:15:04] at 21, 22 years old,

[00:15:06] I very well may have made

[00:15:07] mistakes as well.

[00:15:08] And he's he's never run

[00:15:09] from any of them,

[00:15:10] at least not that I'm aware of

[00:15:11] and continues to try

[00:15:13] to address those things.

[00:15:14] So putting all that stuff aside

[00:15:16] and back to him as a candidate,

[00:15:17] I think that he's

[00:15:19] I think he's really unique

[00:15:20] and quite frankly,

[00:15:21] for the Republican Party

[00:15:22] to be successful

[00:15:23] on a statewide level,

[00:15:24] something unique

[00:15:25] is going to have to happen

[00:15:26] because the status quo

[00:15:27] has not been very favorable.

[00:15:29] So that kind of brings me

[00:15:30] to where I am right now.

[00:15:31] And I appreciate you

[00:15:32] letting me have a soliloquy

[00:15:34] for however many minutes

[00:15:35] I just rattled off.

[00:15:35] But that's you asked.

[00:15:37] So shame on you for absolutely.

[00:15:39] No, and you're with me.

[00:15:41] I'm with you

[00:15:42] on a lot of that stuff.

[00:15:43] You're with me on a lot of stuff.

[00:15:44] I remember having seen

[00:15:45] Senator Wellstone speak.

[00:15:46] I was not around in the 90

[00:15:47] campaign when he first won.

[00:15:49] I was there.

[00:15:49] I worked on the 96

[00:15:50] campaign with Bosch Woods

[00:15:51] when he attempted to win

[00:15:52] his seat back in the last.

[00:15:54] I was there in 2002

[00:15:55] when he ran for reelection

[00:15:57] and I was the opposition

[00:15:58] researcher did opposition

[00:15:59] research for the party.

[00:16:00] So I saw him quite a bit

[00:16:02] and knew a number of his speeches

[00:16:04] where I think where I see

[00:16:06] the disconnect a little bit is

[00:16:07] I you're with me on all that stuff.

[00:16:09] But it's to think that Wellstone

[00:16:12] behind Wellstone, behind

[00:16:14] who Wellstone was

[00:16:15] someone of an operation.

[00:16:16] There was an operation

[00:16:17] that did some simple blocking

[00:16:19] and tackling to use

[00:16:20] the football analogy

[00:16:21] with a basketball player.

[00:16:22] And that's where I think

[00:16:23] the shortcoming here

[00:16:24] is that I'm with you.

[00:16:25] I'm with you on all the things

[00:16:26] you're saying until we get

[00:16:27] to the point where he stands

[00:16:29] up at a convention,

[00:16:30] gets endorsed, and it doesn't seem

[00:16:32] that there was any

[00:16:33] basic vetting of him at all.

[00:16:35] And so now what's happened is

[00:16:37] not the type of campaign

[00:16:38] that you're that

[00:16:40] I think a lot of people

[00:16:41] would have signed up for.

[00:16:42] This is an entirely

[00:16:43] different type of campaign.

[00:16:44] And it seems like Republicans

[00:16:46] in this instance

[00:16:47] just got a bit ahead of themselves.

[00:16:48] And that's the part

[00:16:49] I'm confused about is

[00:16:51] where at what point did anyone

[00:16:54] know these things on the campaign

[00:16:55] and why was there

[00:16:57] not an attempt to proactively

[00:16:58] get out ahead of them

[00:16:59] and message on them

[00:17:00] of it, because some of these,

[00:17:01] Darren, are not just

[00:17:03] mistakes made as

[00:17:05] as someone who's just

[00:17:06] on the basketball scene.

[00:17:07] Some of these are mistakes

[00:17:08] that were happened

[00:17:10] some of them very recently.

[00:17:11] Some of these court orders

[00:17:12] are recently.

[00:17:12] And so that's the separation.

[00:17:14] And let me also just say,

[00:17:16] I don't know how much

[00:17:16] you've listened to the podcast

[00:17:17] before, but this is something

[00:17:19] and Becky can please

[00:17:20] attest to this.

[00:17:21] I am someone who believes

[00:17:23] in second, third

[00:17:24] and fourth chances in life.

[00:17:25] I'm here because of the grace

[00:17:27] of God goes me.

[00:17:28] And I'm here because of people

[00:17:30] who have given me second,

[00:17:31] third and fourth chances.

[00:17:32] And I've said before to Becky

[00:17:33] that if I could do a podcast

[00:17:35] on one subject,

[00:17:36] it would be on people

[00:17:36] who got in trouble,

[00:17:38] had difficult times

[00:17:40] and are now kicking ass.

[00:17:41] And so a part of me thinks

[00:17:43] I should be

[00:17:45] in exactly the type of person

[00:17:47] who would be wanting to

[00:17:49] embrace Royce White's candidacy

[00:17:52] and say, because

[00:17:53] I love redemption stories.

[00:17:55] I love people who have gone

[00:17:56] through tough situations,

[00:17:58] have some dings.

[00:17:59] Nobody's perfect.

[00:18:00] Let's move past.

[00:18:01] But in this particular instance,

[00:18:03] I think that there's mistakes

[00:18:04] still being made.

[00:18:05] And I don't believe

[00:18:06] that there's been much contrition.

[00:18:07] But to my first question,

[00:18:09] when was this stuff known?

[00:18:11] And did we all

[00:18:12] did you all think that this was

[00:18:14] stuff that could be overlooked?

[00:18:16] So

[00:18:18] it's a mixed it's a mixed answer

[00:18:20] because I will say this

[00:18:22] when I think about the candidates

[00:18:24] for statewide race in particular,

[00:18:26] or really any seat that I've

[00:18:27] supported anybody

[00:18:28] in the last 15 years.

[00:18:30] I did more research

[00:18:31] into this candidate than any.

[00:18:33] I didn't

[00:18:34] ask to see Jeff Johnson's

[00:18:35] criminal record

[00:18:36] or his financial records

[00:18:38] saying it's because you knew

[00:18:40] there were some issues

[00:18:41] because to some extent

[00:18:42] he lived this life

[00:18:43] in the media, right?

[00:18:44] When some certainly

[00:18:45] some of the earlier stuff.

[00:18:47] But the nominations committee

[00:18:48] and this is something

[00:18:49] that I think has to be worked out

[00:18:50] because I would be fine

[00:18:52] with the party saying

[00:18:53] in order to get the endorsement,

[00:18:55] you have to agree

[00:18:56] to have your BCA available

[00:18:58] to all of the delegates.

[00:18:59] You have to be available

[00:18:59] with your public record

[00:19:00] in terms of judgments

[00:19:01] and the like being available

[00:19:02] to everyone.

[00:19:03] I don't like the idea

[00:19:04] of a small committee

[00:19:06] that's appointed

[00:19:07] being able to put their finger

[00:19:08] on the scales by saying

[00:19:09] reservations or no reservations.

[00:19:11] That's totally subjective.

[00:19:12] I couldn't agree with you more.

[00:19:14] And it's interesting

[00:19:14] you say that

[00:19:15] that was one thing that I

[00:19:16] when I ran for deputy chair,

[00:19:18] I said I hated

[00:19:19] I hated nominating committees.

[00:19:21] But continue, keep going.

[00:19:21] I just wanted to

[00:19:22] offer an agreement with you.

[00:19:23] And one of the things

[00:19:25] that has been out there

[00:19:26] is I've heard that

[00:19:27] that one of the one of the folks,

[00:19:28] a nonvoting member

[00:19:29] of that committee has said

[00:19:30] that she was threatened,

[00:19:31] quote unquote.

[00:19:32] I think she's talking about me

[00:19:33] because when she said

[00:19:34] that they were talking about

[00:19:36] whether he'd be qualified

[00:19:37] or qualified with reservations,

[00:19:38] I said if the body

[00:19:39] if the nominations committee,

[00:19:40] which again doesn't have to take

[00:19:42] any sort of oath

[00:19:43] of neutrality on the candidates,

[00:19:45] if they use their position

[00:19:46] to take to go after

[00:19:47] one of the candidates

[00:19:48] with their subjective opinion,

[00:19:50] I'm going to speak against it

[00:19:51] at the convention.

[00:19:52] That was the threat.

[00:19:53] And I would even point out

[00:19:54] that I did speak against it.

[00:19:55] I moved to allow anybody

[00:19:57] that was had found

[00:19:58] with reservations

[00:19:59] to be given additional time

[00:20:01] to address the allegations,

[00:20:02] because otherwise,

[00:20:03] how's that fair?

[00:20:04] How somebody gets to come in

[00:20:06] and say you're a bad person,

[00:20:07] but you don't get a chance

[00:20:08] to speak to it.

[00:20:09] But that's for a whole another

[00:20:10] another analysis.

[00:20:11] Sure.

[00:20:11] Certainly aware of

[00:20:12] a number of things

[00:20:13] I was aware of.

[00:20:14] And again, if you want to go

[00:20:15] like into the child support thing,

[00:20:16] my understanding

[00:20:17] and I am still understanding

[00:20:18] more about this, but

[00:20:20] his initial child support

[00:20:21] rates were set

[00:20:22] based on the expectation

[00:20:24] of an NBA salary,

[00:20:25] which I certainly would never

[00:20:27] even with a pretty good job,

[00:20:28] I would never be able

[00:20:28] to match those.

[00:20:29] And that's how he ended up

[00:20:30] with with the rearages

[00:20:32] that again, he's never

[00:20:33] he's never tried to

[00:20:34] expunge them in any ways

[00:20:36] working on that kind of stuff.

[00:20:37] And so I to me,

[00:20:38] I could look past that

[00:20:40] as as not being again,

[00:20:41] like I said,

[00:20:42] a moral or an ethical issue,

[00:20:44] but something that he is

[00:20:45] still working on.

[00:20:46] I don't necessarily want to address

[00:20:48] like even the

[00:20:49] Fifth District stuff

[00:20:49] just because there's still

[00:20:51] investigation

[00:20:52] and I will tell you this,

[00:20:54] they were misfiled.

[00:20:55] If you look at the forms

[00:20:57] that have been posted online,

[00:20:59] the person that filed them

[00:21:00] had placed the payee

[00:21:01] was listed as the campaign.

[00:21:03] That's clearly not correct.

[00:21:04] The payees who it was

[00:21:06] the payment was made to

[00:21:07] followed by the reason

[00:21:08] and the reasons

[00:21:09] weren't put in there

[00:21:09] and they should have been

[00:21:11] and they should have been

[00:21:11] run past the candidate.

[00:21:13] That's the virus check

[00:21:14] to make sure that there are no

[00:21:15] non campaign expenses

[00:21:17] being run through there.

[00:21:18] And I don't think any of that ran.

[00:21:20] I don't think anything

[00:21:20] any of that was done properly.

[00:21:22] I'm concerned, certainly

[00:21:24] at what's been stated,

[00:21:25] but I'm reserving

[00:21:26] my own personal judgment

[00:21:27] until we get a better sense

[00:21:28] of exactly what was there,

[00:21:30] what remedies there should

[00:21:32] or shouldn't be for

[00:21:33] for any errors that were made

[00:21:34] by third parties.

[00:21:35] And obviously the candidate

[00:21:36] owns it, right?

[00:21:37] It's the candidates campaign.

[00:21:39] But I want to understand

[00:21:40] a little bit more about that.

[00:21:41] And but it becomes

[00:21:43] very subjective as to whether

[00:21:45] having judgments,

[00:21:46] having made business decisions,

[00:21:48] how that impacts

[00:21:49] the way somebody

[00:21:49] analyzes a candidate.

[00:21:51] I guess being an amateur historian,

[00:21:54] I know that we've had

[00:21:55] other people in history

[00:21:56] who had goofy backgrounds.

[00:21:58] One at one example,

[00:21:59] I guess not to take it away

[00:22:00] from politics just a little bit

[00:22:02] so that it's not as charged is

[00:22:04] Ulysses S.

[00:22:05] Grant had a terrible

[00:22:06] drinking problem.

[00:22:07] He had all kinds

[00:22:08] of personal challenges.

[00:22:09] But when it came

[00:22:10] to being a tactician

[00:22:11] leading the Union troops,

[00:22:12] he was phenomenal

[00:22:13] and probably the only person

[00:22:14] in the country

[00:22:15] that could match Lee's tactician.

[00:22:18] But I am able to somewhat

[00:22:20] compartmentalize those two

[00:22:21] different aspects.

[00:22:22] But I have complete respect

[00:22:23] if you come to a different conclusion,

[00:22:25] that's based on your life experience

[00:22:26] and what your expectations are.

[00:22:27] And so we can have

[00:22:29] different perspectives

[00:22:30] on that, I think.

[00:22:32] From my perspective,

[00:22:33] I think the challenge here is that

[00:22:35] it this some of this stuff

[00:22:37] is problematic.

[00:22:38] And I disagree with some

[00:22:39] of your characterizations of it.

[00:22:41] If right now we have a Senate candidate,

[00:22:43] we have endorsed

[00:22:43] Republican Senate candidate

[00:22:44] who's under immense scrutiny

[00:22:46] as to whether he spent money

[00:22:48] at a strip club

[00:22:49] during his 2022 campaign

[00:22:51] for Congress.

[00:22:52] And all of those are issues

[00:22:54] I think that are relatively

[00:22:56] easy to I don't think

[00:22:57] that's something

[00:22:58] that can just be dismissed.

[00:22:59] I don't think that's something

[00:23:00] those are some substantive issues.

[00:23:02] Those are potentially

[00:23:03] some legal issues

[00:23:03] that he's facing

[00:23:04] related to some of those spendings.

[00:23:06] And the question that I think is

[00:23:08] to me, I look at the 2022 race

[00:23:10] and I see a situation

[00:23:12] where a candidate ran

[00:23:13] and then used his

[00:23:16] federal election committee

[00:23:18] a little bit to to travel

[00:23:20] around the country

[00:23:20] and partake in a lifestyle

[00:23:22] completely unrelated

[00:23:23] to running for Congress.

[00:23:25] And so part of me thinks

[00:23:26] what's to prevent that

[00:23:27] from happening this time around?

[00:23:28] Because we're dealing

[00:23:29] with a candidate

[00:23:30] who doesn't have a ton of money

[00:23:32] and regardless of how you want

[00:23:34] to frame up some of his legal issues,

[00:23:36] doesn't have a very good track

[00:23:37] record of handling money.

[00:23:38] And so the question is this going to be

[00:23:40] is what was done in 2022

[00:23:42] going to happen on this Senate race?

[00:23:44] Because these headlines are not good

[00:23:46] and this stuff necessarily wasn't just

[00:23:49] it wasn't hidden.

[00:23:50] It just wasn't pursued

[00:23:52] and looked after at the time.

[00:23:54] I see my point.

[00:23:55] I do.

[00:23:56] And again,

[00:23:57] I've had some conversations

[00:23:58] that you haven't been privy to,

[00:24:00] which maybe changed

[00:24:01] these things just a little bit.

[00:24:02] I certainly can't say

[00:24:04] that your characterization

[00:24:05] based on what you have been exposed

[00:24:06] to would be consistent with that.

[00:24:09] Because when you say

[00:24:10] you had a candidate

[00:24:10] that spent money at a club,

[00:24:12] one of the questions is,

[00:24:13] should that have been listed

[00:24:14] as a campaign expense?

[00:24:16] And that's I'm still trying

[00:24:17] to understand exactly how things were

[00:24:19] reported the way that they were.

[00:24:21] If I had my preference,

[00:24:22] clearly this these issues

[00:24:23] wouldn't be in front of us right now.

[00:24:25] But this is the time to look at them.

[00:24:27] And as far as voters are concerned,

[00:24:29] especially I've been fascinated

[00:24:30] to look at the ratios

[00:24:31] and the public dialogue

[00:24:32] about these things.

[00:24:33] And to some extent,

[00:24:34] with what's happened

[00:24:35] with the bludgeoning of both

[00:24:36] both the president

[00:24:37] and his former president opponent,

[00:24:40] the allegations against them,

[00:24:41] it's just like every day

[00:24:42] there's something new.

[00:24:43] And it almost feels like

[00:24:44] the bar is being lowered

[00:24:45] to a point where people

[00:24:46] just expect that candidates

[00:24:47] are going to have these kinds

[00:24:48] of things thrown at them.

[00:24:50] That doesn't make it right, certainly.

[00:24:51] But it'll be interesting

[00:24:52] to see how that what impact

[00:24:54] that would have on the way

[00:24:54] people perceive things.

[00:24:56] I'm not at a point yet

[00:24:57] where I can make the condemnation.

[00:24:58] I still there's still

[00:25:00] a lot of information

[00:25:01] that I want to understand

[00:25:02] how this ended up where it is.

[00:25:04] What is the appropriate way

[00:25:05] to address this issue?

[00:25:07] Because I do know that the candidate

[00:25:08] was not was not privy

[00:25:10] to the report before it was sent in.

[00:25:12] And so he would not have had

[00:25:14] the opportunity to say, wait a minute.

[00:25:15] What's this?

[00:25:15] To understand how these these were used.

[00:25:18] But again, I'm not in a position

[00:25:19] to defend it at this point.

[00:25:20] But I just say that

[00:25:22] I hear what you're saying.

[00:25:23] I think that it's those

[00:25:24] are reasonable concerns to have.

[00:25:26] And I'm looking to get more information

[00:25:27] before I would reach

[00:25:29] a final opinion on it.

[00:25:31] Let me ask you then,

[00:25:32] because you frame this up

[00:25:33] in somewhat of an interesting way.

[00:25:34] And again, I really appreciate

[00:25:36] coming out to discuss it.

[00:25:37] But I think it's in light.

[00:25:38] It's interesting.

[00:25:40] Do you this stuff is,

[00:25:42] as you can, being thrown at him.

[00:25:44] Is this is this stuff that you think

[00:25:45] shouldn't be litigated by the voters

[00:25:47] looking, for instance, is it not?

[00:25:49] Is it out of bounds

[00:25:51] to look at his past filings?

[00:25:52] Is it out of bounds

[00:25:53] to look at public court records

[00:25:56] and to see orders for protection

[00:25:58] that were issued against Royce White

[00:26:01] by the court because of allegations

[00:26:04] and abuse and other things that happen.

[00:26:06] There's there were orders

[00:26:08] for protection that were granted

[00:26:10] as the court reached

[00:26:11] a determination that there was

[00:26:13] physical abuse against him.

[00:26:14] I think that's I don't think

[00:26:16] that stuff is out of bounds

[00:26:17] to bring up to a candidate

[00:26:19] or to raise about their competency to serve.

[00:26:22] Do you think that stuff is out of bounds?

[00:26:25] Not at all.

[00:26:26] And in fact, you crossed over

[00:26:28] a pretty big gap there.

[00:26:29] Let's talk first.

[00:26:31] Let's talk about the financial reports.

[00:26:33] I think all of it is

[00:26:34] I think all of it is fair game

[00:26:35] for the public to review and consider.

[00:26:38] And absolutely the way

[00:26:39] previous filings were made, I think.

[00:26:41] Again, I think that it is important

[00:26:43] to have it in context,

[00:26:44] especially when you start talking about

[00:26:45] as a state House candidate many years ago.

[00:26:47] I kept pretty much all of my own books.

[00:26:48] I had someone that helped me track things,

[00:26:51] but ultimately I did my own filings

[00:26:52] at a federal level.

[00:26:53] You don't you're not necessarily

[00:26:55] going to be doing that

[00:26:56] just because of the size of the enterprise.

[00:26:57] But no, I think it's absolutely something

[00:26:59] that people can consider

[00:27:00] and make judgments about.

[00:27:01] I'm just saying

[00:27:01] in this particular instance,

[00:27:02] there are clearly errors

[00:27:03] that in the way the thing was filed.

[00:27:05] And that's what I'm waiting

[00:27:06] to have a better understanding of.

[00:27:07] But under no circumstances

[00:27:09] would I say the public

[00:27:09] doesn't have a right to know

[00:27:10] and shouldn't be able to make

[00:27:12] decisions about that.

[00:27:13] When you start to move into the kind

[00:27:14] of the family law stuff

[00:27:15] or the the OFP stuff,

[00:27:17] I would point out that

[00:27:18] unless I miss something,

[00:27:19] all of them,

[00:27:20] all of these are ex parte orders.

[00:27:22] And having done a little bit

[00:27:23] of family law back in the day,

[00:27:25] I on both sides of the dispute,

[00:27:27] OFPs are granted almost every time

[00:27:29] and they almost always include

[00:27:32] fairly strong allegations.

[00:27:34] They're not litigated

[00:27:35] to a finding of truth.

[00:27:37] They are granted as a way of.

[00:27:39] And I can tell you as a judge,

[00:27:40] if somebody came in

[00:27:41] and came to me ex parte

[00:27:42] and ex parte means that

[00:27:43] just the one side shows up.

[00:27:45] The other side is not there.

[00:27:46] If the one side comes in

[00:27:47] and says, I fear for my safety,

[00:27:49] I'm going to grant the order

[00:27:50] because the last thing

[00:27:51] I would want is for someone

[00:27:53] to deny the order

[00:27:53] and then have somebody be

[00:27:54] harmed as a result of that.

[00:27:56] And so OFPs are

[00:27:57] granted pretty routinely.

[00:27:59] There are other dynamics.

[00:28:00] I know that

[00:28:01] in one of the instances

[00:28:02] it was an ex-wife.

[00:28:04] They were having disputes.

[00:28:05] And again, these are pretty powerful

[00:28:06] tools in those debates.

[00:28:08] They're now back together.

[00:28:09] They live together

[00:28:09] and so on.

[00:28:10] And again, it's really hard

[00:28:11] to litigate these things

[00:28:12] in public, let alone even in court

[00:28:14] in an ex parte way.

[00:28:15] So I am I

[00:28:17] because of my background

[00:28:18] with that area of law.

[00:28:20] I tend to maybe take a more

[00:28:25] accommodating perspective

[00:28:26] until I know something

[00:28:27] more specific,

[00:28:28] if there was evidence

[00:28:29] of injury and so on and so forth.

[00:28:31] And maybe that's part of why

[00:28:32] I'm a little bit more cautious

[00:28:33] before jumping to conclusions on that.

[00:28:35] But but even those things,

[00:28:36] even the OFPs,

[00:28:37] it's like it's part

[00:28:37] of the public record.

[00:28:38] And I think voters

[00:28:39] should be able to access

[00:28:41] the information they choose

[00:28:43] to look into and they can draw

[00:28:44] the conclusions that they want.

[00:28:45] So one of the orders

[00:28:47] I'm looking at here

[00:28:47] is an order for protection

[00:28:49] following a hearing.

[00:28:50] So there was a hearing

[00:28:52] it appears that

[00:28:54] Royce did not attend.

[00:28:55] Yes, but the order

[00:28:56] was granted after a hearing.

[00:28:58] Yeah, there's

[00:28:59] there's a hearing

[00:29:00] with their ex parte

[00:29:00] is only when parties at the hearing.

[00:29:02] They don't.

[00:29:02] It's not on.

[00:29:03] There's a let me

[00:29:05] so you can have

[00:29:06] so there's an order.

[00:29:07] You can get an order.

[00:29:08] You can get an ex parte

[00:29:09] order for or order for harassment

[00:29:12] or order for protection granted.

[00:29:14] But this is a specific one

[00:29:15] after there was a hearing.

[00:29:17] And so if there was a hearing,

[00:29:18] both sides get to come.

[00:29:19] It's noted that he did not come,

[00:29:21] but both sides get to come.

[00:29:23] And this was granted

[00:29:24] and the acts of domestic abuse

[00:29:26] have occurred,

[00:29:27] including the following

[00:29:28] physical harm,

[00:29:29] bodily injury or assault,

[00:29:30] infliction of fear,

[00:29:32] imminent physical harm,

[00:29:33] bodily injury,

[00:29:35] interfere with an emergency call.

[00:29:36] So I completely respect

[00:29:38] your position,

[00:29:39] your legal position

[00:29:40] on that order for protections

[00:29:41] can get granted.

[00:29:42] And some of them are ex parte

[00:29:44] in this particular instance.

[00:29:45] This was an order

[00:29:46] for protection

[00:29:47] that was granted after a hearing

[00:29:49] and signed and it was

[00:29:51] and he had the opportunity

[00:29:52] to come and didn't come.

[00:29:53] I have to I'm not familiar

[00:29:55] with the particular document,

[00:29:56] but I'll have to

[00:29:57] I'll have to take a look at that.

[00:29:58] And then again,

[00:29:59] and so just not to drill

[00:30:00] too much down on this stuff.

[00:30:01] But then there was a

[00:30:02] then there was a

[00:30:03] he pled guilty to violating an OFP

[00:30:06] in 2020.

[00:30:08] And so he pleaded guilty

[00:30:10] or was charged and dismissed.

[00:30:12] He pleaded guilty.

[00:30:13] It was a stay of adjudication,

[00:30:15] but he did plead guilty.

[00:30:16] I'm not sure.

[00:30:17] Yeah, so he did.

[00:30:18] He was he pled guilty

[00:30:19] to a misdemeanor violation

[00:30:21] of an order for protection.

[00:30:22] And then that was a state,

[00:30:23] but he did plead guilty

[00:30:25] and he signed a guilty plea

[00:30:26] admitting it.

[00:30:26] So I understand the legalese.

[00:30:28] I understand all the legalese.

[00:30:30] But this is the disconnect

[00:30:31] that and Darren,

[00:30:31] I say this again and.

[00:30:34] What doesn't make sense

[00:30:35] in this equation is you

[00:30:37] because I've known you for 22 years.

[00:30:40] I know who you are and I know I'm like,

[00:30:42] this doesn't make any sense to me.

[00:30:44] And so part of this discussion

[00:30:46] isn't to go after you

[00:30:47] and have there be a

[00:30:48] but it's to explain it

[00:30:50] because I know the type of thought.

[00:30:53] I know the type of thoughtful,

[00:30:54] deliberative politics

[00:30:56] you've engaged in over the years.

[00:30:57] And this one is just a head

[00:30:59] scratcher to me,

[00:30:59] because then you take

[00:31:00] this kind of behavior in the past

[00:31:02] and then you couple it

[00:31:03] with the online persona

[00:31:04] of what he's been doing.

[00:31:05] And all of this to me,

[00:31:08] all of this stuff makes

[00:31:09] all of this stuff makes sense

[00:31:10] because if as you're describing it,

[00:31:13] someone who was thrust

[00:31:14] into the NBA at an early age

[00:31:16] and then had to deal

[00:31:17] with some things early in his life.

[00:31:19] What I think Minnesotans are seeing

[00:31:20] is this narrative

[00:31:22] that's been portrayed

[00:31:23] in the court records,

[00:31:24] which again is in some instances

[00:31:26] they are ordered for protection

[00:31:27] that are granted, others are not.

[00:31:29] But then you see this behavior

[00:31:30] that exists online

[00:31:31] with him right now.

[00:31:33] And to me, it's someone

[00:31:35] who's not ready

[00:31:37] to be is not ready

[00:31:39] for the scrutiny of a campaign,

[00:31:41] is not ready for the scrutiny

[00:31:42] of King's main and is not prepared

[00:31:44] for what he's about to experience.

[00:31:46] And that's my concern.

[00:31:50] And I think that, like I said,

[00:31:51] I think that you can absolutely

[00:31:53] come to that conclusion.

[00:31:54] And I think there will be a lot

[00:31:55] of people that have

[00:31:56] to ask those questions.

[00:31:57] It's interesting also

[00:31:58] because one of the challenges

[00:32:00] that I think we have,

[00:32:01] I think everybody has across the country

[00:32:03] and maybe worldwide is

[00:32:05] it takes a long time

[00:32:06] before you actually get down

[00:32:07] to the policy differences

[00:32:08] between the different

[00:32:09] between the candidates.

[00:32:10] Right. We talk a lot

[00:32:11] about the ad hominem stuff,

[00:32:12] the personal stuff

[00:32:13] and where that where

[00:32:15] that has an impact

[00:32:16] and when should that have an impact?

[00:32:18] You saw this right in that

[00:32:20] with the Senator Mitchell

[00:32:21] dialogue at the legislature

[00:32:22] where now the Republican Party

[00:32:24] is saying, hey, there's a

[00:32:26] we should have a standard

[00:32:27] that we have to meet

[00:32:27] and the objective evidence

[00:32:29] about what happened in this

[00:32:30] at this stepmother's house

[00:32:32] shows that that standard is not met

[00:32:33] and this person should be out.

[00:32:34] Clearly, the Democrats

[00:32:36] very much wanted to keep her in

[00:32:38] and said, we can't really be sure

[00:32:39] what exactly happened and so on

[00:32:41] because from a policy standpoint,

[00:32:43] they needed that vote desperately.

[00:32:44] Otherwise, they're frozen

[00:32:45] out of all that

[00:32:46] that late session stuff.

[00:32:48] And again, getting back

[00:32:49] to the candidate himself

[00:32:50] and what is his capacity?

[00:32:52] My assessment is that based

[00:32:54] on what I understand

[00:32:56] of the dynamics and of the things

[00:32:58] and there are some things

[00:32:59] that I want to go back

[00:33:00] and take a look at

[00:33:01] based on what you were

[00:33:02] just talking about.

[00:33:03] But based on what I knew

[00:33:05] at the time, certainly,

[00:33:06] and even up until this point right now,

[00:33:08] I'm still trying to balance between

[00:33:10] what are the challenges

[00:33:11] that may come up

[00:33:11] in those kinds of conversations

[00:33:13] against this person's ability

[00:33:16] to reach new communities,

[00:33:17] to motivate voters to

[00:33:19] as a sort of charismatic persona.

[00:33:21] You're right.

[00:33:21] Very different than Wellstone.

[00:33:23] That's why I said

[00:33:23] that's why I use the mirror image

[00:33:24] as opposed to it

[00:33:26] as opposed to carbon copy.

[00:33:27] But I think that he's somebody

[00:33:29] that that has the ability

[00:33:30] to get people's attention

[00:33:31] in a way that the party

[00:33:32] has lacked in a long time.

[00:33:34] And even though we've had

[00:33:34] phenomenal individuals,

[00:33:36] very strong personalities,

[00:33:38] very excellent folks

[00:33:39] that have run for office,

[00:33:40] but they haven't been able

[00:33:41] to overcome some of the challenges

[00:33:43] or some of the advantages

[00:33:43] that the Democrats have

[00:33:44] on statewide races.

[00:33:46] This candidate think

[00:33:47] it has a skill set

[00:33:48] that gives him a chance

[00:33:49] that I think others

[00:33:49] maybe haven't had.

[00:33:50] And I'll continue

[00:33:51] to review the concerns

[00:33:52] that people raise.

[00:33:53] And from my own personal standpoint,

[00:33:55] but otherwise,

[00:33:56] I do think people can disagree on it

[00:33:58] as it we need about

[00:34:00] four of these conversations,

[00:34:02] I think, to really get into

[00:34:03] the guts of it.

[00:34:04] But I understand

[00:34:04] what you're saying, Michael.

[00:34:05] And like I said,

[00:34:07] I think a lot of people will be

[00:34:08] coming at it from your perspective.

[00:34:11] I think there are a lot of

[00:34:12] a lot of folks out there.

[00:34:13] And this is again

[00:34:13] watching the ratio

[00:34:14] on the public dialogue.

[00:34:16] There are a lot of people

[00:34:17] that are just so used to it

[00:34:18] being such a bludgeoning

[00:34:20] of the candidates that

[00:34:22] they almost stop

[00:34:22] even listening to that.

[00:34:23] And they just start focusing

[00:34:24] what are they saying?

[00:34:25] What are they saying

[00:34:25] they're going to do

[00:34:26] if they're elected?

[00:34:27] And I think that

[00:34:27] there's a value in that as well.

[00:34:29] And to the extent

[00:34:30] that he gets to that point

[00:34:31] where they're having

[00:34:31] to make a decision

[00:34:32] between the two candidates

[00:34:33] that our incumbent

[00:34:34] senator has 18 years behind her

[00:34:36] and people can look at

[00:34:37] the success or failures

[00:34:39] of the policies

[00:34:40] that she's advocated

[00:34:40] over that period

[00:34:41] compared to what he's saying

[00:34:42] he would do

[00:34:43] if he's in that position.

[00:34:44] And maybe at some point in time,

[00:34:45] that's where the public

[00:34:46] is conducting the analysis.

[00:34:48] Right now, I do recognize

[00:34:49] that there's a lot of

[00:34:50] personal vetting going on.

[00:34:51] And I'm not really

[00:34:52] very surprised by that

[00:34:53] as we look to see

[00:34:54] whether there's a primary battle

[00:34:56] or if it's heading

[00:34:57] toward the November elections.

[00:34:58] One thing I want to chat

[00:34:59] a little bit about is

[00:35:00] tying in what we've been

[00:35:01] you guys have been chatting about

[00:35:03] for the last little bit here.

[00:35:04] And Darren, what you just said,

[00:35:05] I came up in the party structure,

[00:35:07] the endorsement state convention

[00:35:08] know how much power there is

[00:35:10] behind having a powerful speaker

[00:35:12] and somebody that

[00:35:14] has that fire and passion.

[00:35:16] I then went on to work

[00:35:17] for Congressman Emery

[00:35:17] as his communications director,

[00:35:19] Jason Lewis as his campaign manager.

[00:35:21] So I also understand

[00:35:22] working for some of those fire brand

[00:35:24] ready fired up individuals

[00:35:27] and what comes with that.

[00:35:29] My concern is tying this all together

[00:35:32] is that message discipline, though,

[00:35:33] because there is something

[00:35:34] about being a good speechgiver.

[00:35:37] But then there is

[00:35:37] when we look at some candidates,

[00:35:39] obviously Trump is one,

[00:35:40] but we're seeing this

[00:35:41] a little bit from Royce White too,

[00:35:43] where the statements

[00:35:44] then get in the way

[00:35:45] of the actual message.

[00:35:46] I think in some of these questions

[00:35:48] and a statement I saw

[00:35:49] in the Star Tribune

[00:35:50] about the spending

[00:35:52] was an inflammatory response

[00:35:54] about Black Lives Matter

[00:35:55] also manages money.

[00:35:57] So is this such a big deal?

[00:35:58] So I think there is a way

[00:36:00] to respond to these

[00:36:01] to still be able to have a

[00:36:04] good, credible, reliable

[00:36:06] vision or viewpoint

[00:36:08] for voters to grasp at.

[00:36:10] And that's one of my concerns here

[00:36:12] is if we do have him

[00:36:13] get to the stage

[00:36:14] where he would be having

[00:36:15] conversations and messaging

[00:36:17] contrast to Amy Klobuchar,

[00:36:20] what does that look like?

[00:36:21] Is he going to be able to have those

[00:36:22] short, concise, thoughtful responses?

[00:36:25] Or are we going to continue to see

[00:36:27] the kind of combative nature

[00:36:31] and some of these statements

[00:36:32] that we're getting in articles

[00:36:34] and on Twitter, because

[00:36:35] let me tell you, a candidate

[00:36:36] having the keys to their own Twitter

[00:36:38] is my worst nightmare

[00:36:39] as a comms person.

[00:36:40] So it's just a lot of concerns

[00:36:42] coming from me of looking at

[00:36:44] what has been done in his messaging.

[00:36:47] Passionate? Great.

[00:36:48] But we need more.

[00:36:49] We need to have a tailored messaging

[00:36:51] from a candidate at this level.

[00:36:53] And I'm just curious

[00:36:54] if he has the ability to get there.

[00:36:57] And I share your curiosity.

[00:36:59] I would point out that Royce and I have had

[00:37:03] and again, I don't run this campaign.

[00:37:05] I give my thoughts about

[00:37:07] various ways to develop it.

[00:37:08] And it's on prior to the endorsement.

[00:37:10] My advice was to focus on the endorsement

[00:37:12] because he had agreed to abide

[00:37:13] at both candidates

[00:37:14] had agreed to abide by the endorsement.

[00:37:17] And so I just said,

[00:37:18] I would recommend that you work

[00:37:19] on the delegates, work on

[00:37:20] getting your message to the delegates

[00:37:21] and seeking the endorsement

[00:37:23] and because you'll have time

[00:37:24] after that to again,

[00:37:27] build the structure and be prepared

[00:37:28] for a strong statewide campaign.

[00:37:30] And he's in the process

[00:37:31] of building that right now.

[00:37:32] But we've had we have had

[00:37:33] opportunities to have conversations

[00:37:35] and I've had to address the fact

[00:37:36] that I'm not young anymore.

[00:37:38] I'm I'm a full

[00:37:39] I'm more than a generation

[00:37:40] older than this candidate,

[00:37:41] depending on how you break out

[00:37:43] your generations.

[00:37:44] And so I tend to see things, Becky,

[00:37:46] very much the way you do

[00:37:47] as far as discipline message.

[00:37:49] And here's how you present it and so on.

[00:37:51] We we're still working on that.

[00:37:52] We're still having that dialogue

[00:37:54] on how to communicate

[00:37:55] and where's the upside

[00:37:56] of certain kinds of communication,

[00:37:58] as opposed to what are

[00:37:59] the potential downsides

[00:38:00] of certain kinds of communication,

[00:38:01] if that makes any sense.

[00:38:02] And so it is again,

[00:38:05] this is a very different kind

[00:38:06] of candidate than that has been

[00:38:08] put forward in the past.

[00:38:09] And so he has he has his own concept

[00:38:12] of how some of these things

[00:38:13] are communicated

[00:38:14] and what should be communicated

[00:38:16] and will continue

[00:38:17] to have those conversations

[00:38:18] as things go.

[00:38:18] But I hear everything you're saying

[00:38:20] and I certainly am not going to say

[00:38:21] that I don't share

[00:38:22] much of your thought

[00:38:24] but I also recognize that

[00:38:25] I don't have perfect knowledge

[00:38:27] about everything

[00:38:27] as to what is going to be effective.

[00:38:29] And just had you asked me in 2015

[00:38:32] if I thought former reality TV

[00:38:34] star Donald Trump,

[00:38:36] along with all the other things

[00:38:37] that he has in his background

[00:38:38] that he would be our president.

[00:38:40] I would never have thought

[00:38:41] that was going to be the case,

[00:38:42] but alas there it was.

[00:38:43] I find myself surprised

[00:38:45] in multiple circumstances.

[00:38:46] And so we'll see where this goes.

[00:38:49] I was I I try

[00:38:51] and answer your question,

[00:38:52] but maybe not as precisely

[00:38:54] as you would have liked.

[00:38:54] That was great.

[00:38:55] Thank you.

[00:38:56] I have a question just about

[00:38:57] where we go forward here.

[00:38:58] There are a number of Republicans

[00:39:00] who believe that

[00:39:01] the process didn't work here

[00:39:03] related to the vetting

[00:39:05] the and the endorsement process

[00:39:07] related to Royce White,

[00:39:08] that some of this information

[00:39:10] should have been shared.

[00:39:11] There should have been

[00:39:11] more transparency.

[00:39:12] There should have been

[00:39:13] more discussion

[00:39:14] and more thoughtfulness

[00:39:15] about the explosiveness

[00:39:18] of this information

[00:39:19] and what role the campaign had.

[00:39:21] Do you think in hindsight

[00:39:23] that to what degree

[00:39:24] you were involved,

[00:39:24] that the campaign

[00:39:25] handled this information well?

[00:39:27] And do you think that

[00:39:29] there that what do you say

[00:39:31] to Republicans out there

[00:39:32] who are looking at this

[00:39:34] and saying this is a campaign

[00:39:36] even eight days

[00:39:37] past the endorsement

[00:39:38] or nine, ten days

[00:39:39] after endorsement

[00:39:40] still isn't on top of this stuff.

[00:39:42] Do you think you're going to get

[00:39:43] a challenger in the primary?

[00:39:44] And do you think

[00:39:45] that the endorsement process

[00:39:47] worked in this matter

[00:39:49] specifically related

[00:39:50] to the vetting

[00:39:51] and the discussions

[00:39:52] on what was shared

[00:39:52] and what was known?

[00:39:55] I my general feeling

[00:39:57] is that the process worked

[00:39:58] as well as the process

[00:40:00] is able to work.

[00:40:01] Obviously, in 1990, again,

[00:40:03] this is a bit

[00:40:04] before your time.

[00:40:05] Let's see 90.

[00:40:05] I want to make sure

[00:40:06] I've got the right date,

[00:40:07] the right campaign date.

[00:40:08] The Republicans put forward

[00:40:11] a highly respectable

[00:40:13] business person named

[00:40:14] John Grunseth.

[00:40:15] And then things came out

[00:40:16] just before the election

[00:40:17] that ultimately resulted

[00:40:19] in him withdrawing.

[00:40:20] I don't think you can have

[00:40:21] a perfect process

[00:40:22] that would avoid any potential

[00:40:24] for something to come out later

[00:40:26] that that that creates a problem.

[00:40:28] And Becky, I think you've got

[00:40:31] familiarity with other circumstances

[00:40:32] where things come out

[00:40:33] and they're just pounded on somebody

[00:40:35] in statewide races that way.

[00:40:36] But the committee

[00:40:39] stated reservations

[00:40:41] and they talked about

[00:40:41] some of the things

[00:40:42] that you've talked about,

[00:40:43] maybe not with quite as much precision.

[00:40:45] But they did talk

[00:40:46] about their being problems,

[00:40:47] financial problems,

[00:40:48] the judgment issues.

[00:40:50] And I know people

[00:40:51] were talking about the orders

[00:40:52] and the risk that those orders

[00:40:54] presented as to people

[00:40:55] having concerns and so on.

[00:40:56] And the body still,

[00:40:57] even after having been told

[00:40:59] those things, supported him

[00:41:01] in first ballot 67.

[00:41:02] That's pretty relatively rare

[00:41:04] at these kinds of at this level.

[00:41:06] And again, we're still

[00:41:07] continuing forward

[00:41:08] as to what else is out there.

[00:41:10] I just the idea that the party

[00:41:12] is able to conduct these vettings

[00:41:14] in such a dramatic way.

[00:41:16] And then when you present it,

[00:41:17] the delegates may just not agree.

[00:41:19] And that seems to be

[00:41:20] what happened here.

[00:41:20] I think the delegates understood

[00:41:22] maybe not the full

[00:41:23] complexity of everything and so on,

[00:41:24] but they definitely understood

[00:41:26] that this is a human being with flaws.

[00:41:27] I think we all have them.

[00:41:28] Some are more pronounced

[00:41:29] perhaps in the legal system than others.

[00:41:32] But the body decided to

[00:41:34] even with him

[00:41:35] being the one with reservations

[00:41:36] because his opponent

[00:41:37] did not have any reservations.

[00:41:38] He was recommended

[00:41:39] without reservations.

[00:41:40] And still the body went

[00:41:41] strongly in favor of Royce.

[00:41:43] I can't predict

[00:41:44] if there's going to be a

[00:41:46] primary battle.

[00:41:47] I'm not aware of one yet.

[00:41:48] If Mr. Fraser, who ran

[00:41:50] at the state convention,

[00:41:51] he promised the nominations committee

[00:41:53] according to the nominations

[00:41:54] committee members that he would

[00:41:55] abide by the endorsement.

[00:41:56] There was no qualification in that.

[00:41:58] There was no unless we find out

[00:42:00] that the other candidates

[00:42:01] got some baggage.

[00:42:02] If he were to run,

[00:42:03] I as a former

[00:42:04] as a military veteran myself,

[00:42:06] I would find that to be

[00:42:07] a bit problematic

[00:42:09] when you give your word,

[00:42:10] you give your word.

[00:42:11] And I think that would be a fair

[00:42:13] of a fair consistency

[00:42:14] that would be a fair of a fair concern

[00:42:16] that a lot of people would have.

[00:42:17] I, interestingly enough,

[00:42:19] I almost find that

[00:42:19] to be more challenging

[00:42:21] than some of the

[00:42:23] things that we're talking about

[00:42:24] with respect to to Royce.

[00:42:25] But I guess we'll find out.

[00:42:27] We'll find out.

[00:42:28] I do.

[00:42:28] I think the process is broken.

[00:42:30] No, I think it may be good

[00:42:31] for educating folks to say

[00:42:34] here's how we have to,

[00:42:35] I think, look into these things,

[00:42:36] because I do know that Royce

[00:42:37] submitted to a BCA

[00:42:39] and he allowed

[00:42:40] and the public records

[00:42:41] were searched by the committee.

[00:42:43] And so the one thing that you could say

[00:42:45] wasn't necessarily there is

[00:42:46] I don't know that the scouring

[00:42:48] of his Fifth District stuff,

[00:42:49] which I wasn't I wasn't tracking

[00:42:50] prior to the convention

[00:42:52] and the issues with that

[00:42:53] that need to be addressed.

[00:42:54] I don't think that was necessarily

[00:42:55] part of the dialogue at that point.

[00:42:57] But it certainly is a public record.

[00:42:59] Anybody could have

[00:42:59] could have looked into it

[00:43:00] at that point.

[00:43:01] And so the question is,

[00:43:02] how much do we expect

[00:43:03] individual delegates

[00:43:04] to look into that stuff?

[00:43:05] How much is the party's obligation

[00:43:07] and how should that be presented?

[00:43:08] And as Michael, as you

[00:43:09] and I've talked about,

[00:43:10] I think that I think anything

[00:43:12] that's public should be put

[00:43:13] should be available to the delegates

[00:43:15] and so that they can review it

[00:43:16] and make decisions that way as well.

[00:43:18] But so I will see if we'll see

[00:43:19] if somebody enters the

[00:43:21] enters the primary

[00:43:22] and we'll see how the candidate

[00:43:24] and his team are able

[00:43:25] to respond to these concerns

[00:43:26] that have come up.

[00:43:27] And then the public

[00:43:28] obviously will have to make

[00:43:29] a decision as to whether

[00:43:30] they're adequate to get past that

[00:43:31] and get to the issues

[00:43:33] as Becky has described a minute ago.

[00:43:36] Darren, I want to give you

[00:43:37] a chance to respond to this

[00:43:38] and then we then I want to be

[00:43:39] respectful of your time.

[00:43:40] You've been so generous

[00:43:41] with your time today.

[00:43:42] I want but I want to give you

[00:43:43] a chance for a son.

[00:43:44] My take today is that someone

[00:43:46] should run against Royce White

[00:43:47] because I have doubts

[00:43:50] that the process worked

[00:43:52] because because I would say to you

[00:43:54] that based on the reaction

[00:43:55] of what I've heard from delegates

[00:43:56] that I've spoken to,

[00:43:58] I don't think a lot

[00:43:58] of this information was known.

[00:44:00] I think that there was some issues

[00:44:01] that were known,

[00:44:02] but I don't think a lot of it

[00:44:03] was known.

[00:44:04] And I think that there could have been

[00:44:06] more.

[00:44:07] I think this will be a learning lesson,

[00:44:08] I think for the party

[00:44:09] and the nominee committee.

[00:44:10] I've always disagreed

[00:44:12] with nominating committees

[00:44:13] because I think they come

[00:44:13] at the wrong end of the process.

[00:44:15] I think that because what you do

[00:44:16] is you have a candidate

[00:44:17] you have campaigns

[00:44:18] running all across the state

[00:44:19] and they come to the state convention

[00:44:21] and it's at that point

[00:44:22] you decide whether they get

[00:44:23] to speak or not.

[00:44:24] If you're going to have these committees,

[00:44:26] empower them to do the right thing

[00:44:28] and because it's

[00:44:30] you're setting it up

[00:44:31] for a conflict at the state convention

[00:44:32] when you come out at the last minute

[00:44:34] and you make these declarations

[00:44:36] about candidates being

[00:44:37] with reservations or with not.

[00:44:39] And I do have concerns.

[00:44:40] I think there's been a number of delegates

[00:44:41] that have reached out to me

[00:44:43] so they didn't know this information.

[00:44:44] They didn't know the details

[00:44:45] of the information

[00:44:46] and they would have made

[00:44:47] different decisions.

[00:44:48] And so I think the challenge right now

[00:44:50] is should is it enough

[00:44:52] of a violation

[00:44:54] or is it is the stuff so egregious

[00:44:56] that it warrants someone

[00:44:58] going back on a pledge

[00:44:59] or so far that they made.

[00:45:00] And I will say to you that

[00:45:02] this allegiance to an endorsement pledge

[00:45:04] at the sake of losing conventions

[00:45:06] and losing losing general elections

[00:45:09] is my rub a bit because I see that we're

[00:45:12] we're at we want to stake a claim

[00:45:13] that if someone said

[00:45:15] they were going to abide and now they're not.

[00:45:17] That's more of an issue

[00:45:18] than some of the information

[00:45:19] that's come out.

[00:45:20] And the other challenge

[00:45:21] I have is I think the response

[00:45:23] so far from some of now

[00:45:25] you've been much different.

[00:45:27] And again, part of this

[00:45:28] doesn't make a lot of sense to me,

[00:45:29] but I'm glad you've explained it.

[00:45:31] The other people close to Royce

[00:45:32] closer to the campaign

[00:45:33] and your candidate directly,

[00:45:35] there's something I think a lot of gaslight

[00:45:37] going on right now as to whether

[00:45:38] this stuff actually exists.

[00:45:40] And I've read the court orders.

[00:45:42] I've seen the FEC reports.

[00:45:44] We let's have a discussion

[00:45:45] on what's there,

[00:45:46] but let's not pretend it doesn't exist.

[00:45:48] And so my concern is that

[00:45:50] we're coming out of a convention

[00:45:51] and this usually the time when

[00:45:53] you try to propel a candidate

[00:45:55] out of the convention.

[00:45:56] They're flying around the state.

[00:45:57] There's a fly around.

[00:45:58] They're hanging out

[00:45:58] with other endorsed candidates.

[00:45:59] They're raising money.

[00:46:01] That's not what's happening here.

[00:46:02] And I still so from the standpoint

[00:46:03] of the fact that

[00:46:05] I think this campaign is so far behind.

[00:46:08] To me, I think someone needs to get in,

[00:46:10] but I get to me.

[00:46:11] That's just my take.

[00:46:12] But I don't know.

[00:46:13] I think this campaign is so far behind.

[00:46:15] And even now, what are we?

[00:46:16] 10 days after the convention,

[00:46:18] we there's still confusion

[00:46:20] as to what's in Royce White's record.

[00:46:22] And so that's my take,

[00:46:24] but we'll see.

[00:46:25] I just that's my take,

[00:46:27] but I'll leave it to you for the

[00:46:28] to give the final word.

[00:46:29] All right, I appreciate that.

[00:46:30] Thanks, Michael.

[00:46:31] And again, thank you

[00:46:31] both Becky and Michael.

[00:46:32] I'm so it's an honor

[00:46:34] to be asked to

[00:46:34] to render an opinion.

[00:46:35] I've got four people in my household

[00:46:37] that don't seem as interested in my opinion.

[00:46:39] So it's nice that someone

[00:46:40] wants to listen once in a while,

[00:46:41] but whether I have anything valuable

[00:46:43] to say is, of course,

[00:46:43] another matter altogether.

[00:46:45] But where I disagree with you

[00:46:47] on this, Michael, is that

[00:46:50] ultimately we're talking

[00:46:51] about the subjective.

[00:46:52] And and while I agree

[00:46:54] that you can reach a point

[00:46:56] of subjectivity or subjective analysis

[00:46:58] where you can come to the conclusion

[00:46:59] that somebody is not your candidate,

[00:47:02] it's very much a matter of opinion.

[00:47:03] And because to take that position

[00:47:05] that, oh, look, I made a promise there,

[00:47:08] but now I found subjective reasons

[00:47:10] to to break my promise.

[00:47:13] Then the promise is worth nothing

[00:47:15] because the promise wasn't qualified.

[00:47:17] It was a complete I will abide.

[00:47:19] And so obviously it'd be one thing

[00:47:21] if the candidate was unable to run

[00:47:23] or dropped out personally

[00:47:24] or something happened to them.

[00:47:26] That obviously would lift that

[00:47:27] because now the endorsement

[00:47:28] no longer exists.

[00:47:29] But because then what happens

[00:47:30] when you say, wait a minute,

[00:47:32] when this person was endorsed,

[00:47:33] I don't think the delegates knew

[00:47:34] that this was that person's position

[00:47:36] on Social Security,

[00:47:37] on the changes to Social Security.

[00:47:39] And because of that,

[00:47:40] now I'm going to say

[00:47:42] there are enough delegates

[00:47:43] that don't like that opinion

[00:47:44] that I'm going to go ahead and run.

[00:47:45] I know that sounds facile, but it's true.

[00:47:48] And so I still think

[00:47:49] that we're in that analysis.

[00:47:51] It's still a subjective analysis

[00:47:52] as to what extent this person who,

[00:47:54] you know, and part of the challenge

[00:47:55] I know for me, Michael, is

[00:47:57] I grew up in a different community

[00:47:59] than Royce did.

[00:48:00] I've got a different background

[00:48:01] and you can you can say

[00:48:02] that's a sort of a convenient excuse,

[00:48:05] but I think it actually is a reality.

[00:48:07] There are certain differences

[00:48:09] in the way different folks live their lives.

[00:48:11] And so I'm constantly trying to evaluate

[00:48:13] how effective would this person

[00:48:15] be as a U.S. Senator?

[00:48:16] And I'm still of the mind

[00:48:18] that the skill set

[00:48:19] that he showed at the convention

[00:48:20] and our conversations about policy

[00:48:22] and things that that he

[00:48:24] I think that he would actually be

[00:48:25] very unusual in his in his courage.

[00:48:27] I think we all have a lot of candidates,

[00:48:29] a lot of folks

[00:48:29] that have gotten into office

[00:48:30] and then they become

[00:48:31] a little bit more amenable

[00:48:33] to the status quo.

[00:48:33] I think that this is a guy

[00:48:34] that that would stand pretty strong

[00:48:36] on the things that

[00:48:37] that he espouses and so on.

[00:48:38] But yeah, I think we're not going

[00:48:40] to reach agreement as to whether or not

[00:48:42] it would be appropriate

[00:48:42] to go against one's promise

[00:48:45] on abiding.

[00:48:46] My word is is pretty important to me

[00:48:48] and I hold other folks

[00:48:49] to theirs as well.

[00:48:50] And at least I try to be fair about that.

[00:48:53] And I think that the word was given

[00:48:54] and it should be kept.

[00:48:55] But obviously the law permits people

[00:48:57] to to be flexible

[00:48:59] and whether they stick to that

[00:49:01] based on changes in the environment,

[00:49:04] subjective or otherwise.

[00:49:05] So we'll see what happens here

[00:49:07] in the coming days.

[00:49:08] I guess we'll know in about a week or so,

[00:49:09] right, whether whether there's

[00:49:10] a primary battle.

[00:49:12] And obviously, Mr.

[00:49:14] Mr. White, who was, you know,

[00:49:15] it's a monumental endorsement.

[00:49:17] I think it's the first black

[00:49:18] candidate endorsed by either major

[00:49:19] party for a U.S. Senate race.

[00:49:21] And certainly for somebody,

[00:49:23] you know, with his unusual background,

[00:49:24] it's unique for our state.

[00:49:26] And he's got a lot of work

[00:49:27] to do between now and November.

[00:49:29] I will just the last point

[00:49:30] is as to whether the campaign

[00:49:32] is up and running.

[00:49:33] I have I don't I have no concern

[00:49:36] that this campaign,

[00:49:37] the campaign is already generating

[00:49:39] financial support.

[00:49:40] And I have no doubt that it

[00:49:43] will be a cogent,

[00:49:44] effective statewide campaign

[00:49:47] as he continues to build the team.

[00:49:49] It wasn't built prior

[00:49:50] to the endorsement.

[00:49:51] But again, Mr.

[00:49:52] Penny started his campaign

[00:49:53] for governor in July.

[00:49:55] There's a difference

[00:49:55] between Tim Penny and Rice White.

[00:49:58] There are multiple differences

[00:49:59] between the two.

[00:49:59] Yes, but the reality

[00:50:00] that a person can get a campaign

[00:50:02] up and running within

[00:50:03] a fairly short amount of time

[00:50:04] is proven by the success

[00:50:05] that Mr.

[00:50:06] Penny had in getting a

[00:50:08] competent statewide campaign.

[00:50:10] Which I would know,

[00:50:11] which I would know

[00:50:12] it was not successful

[00:50:14] because the campaign

[00:50:14] Michael Broadcorp was working on

[00:50:16] was was victorious that that November.

[00:50:18] That's very kind of you.

[00:50:19] That's very kind of you

[00:50:20] assigning way much more responsibility

[00:50:22] for something that I didn't,

[00:50:23] which is the message of my life.

[00:50:25] But I want to thank you

[00:50:25] for coming on.

[00:50:26] And we hope to have

[00:50:27] that this dialogue going forward.

[00:50:29] Sure.

[00:50:29] And we appreciate you

[00:50:30] coming on and explaining

[00:50:31] this a bit for our listeners

[00:50:33] and having a part of the

[00:50:34] discount of the conversation.

[00:50:35] Be safe on the campaign trail,

[00:50:37] whatever you do.

[00:50:38] OK, thank you.

[00:50:40] I don't know how much

[00:50:41] I'll be out there,

[00:50:42] but maybe once I'll go out

[00:50:43] and get my steps in or something.

[00:50:44] Yes. If there's one thing

[00:50:45] I do think this campaign

[00:50:46] is going to need as a lawyer

[00:50:47] and you're there

[00:50:48] and you'll be there.

[00:50:48] All right.

[00:50:49] I'll be calling Becky for advice.

[00:50:50] That's right. Right.

[00:50:51] All right.

[00:50:52] Thank you.

[00:50:53] Thank you, folks.

[00:50:57] Becky, we just interviewed

[00:50:58] Darren Rocha, who is

[00:51:01] serving in a nonpaid

[00:51:04] advisory legal advisory role

[00:51:06] to Royce White's campaign.

[00:51:08] We spoke to him for

[00:51:09] darn near close an hour.

[00:51:10] He was very generous with his time.

[00:51:12] Your take on the interview?

[00:51:14] I thought the interview was great.

[00:51:15] I appreciate somebody

[00:51:16] who's coming on.

[00:51:16] Obviously, he knew that

[00:51:18] there was a lot going on,

[00:51:19] a lot being said about his

[00:51:21] the candidate he is supporting

[00:51:22] and affiliated with.

[00:51:24] And so I always appreciate anybody

[00:51:25] who's willing to step into that

[00:51:27] and have those conversations

[00:51:28] and explain a little bit.

[00:51:29] I will say I have a lot of

[00:51:32] probably a lot more questions

[00:51:33] than we even had to start with.

[00:51:35] And so I want to just start

[00:51:36] with the endorsement side of things

[00:51:38] because we chatted a lot

[00:51:39] and they think there's a lot more

[00:51:40] to dive into there.

[00:51:41] A lot of conversations about

[00:51:43] the role of the nominations

[00:51:44] committee and what the delegates

[00:51:46] knew versus they didn't know.

[00:51:47] We're seeing in some articles

[00:51:48] and conversations

[00:51:49] front with delegates

[00:51:50] that people feel a little duped, right?

[00:51:52] They feel they were sold

[00:51:54] one version of Royce White

[00:51:55] and now all of this is coming out.

[00:51:57] Now, yes, each candidate should be

[00:52:00] or delegates should be

[00:52:01] doing their own homework.

[00:52:01] Totally buy into that.

[00:52:04] But we have we can sidestep

[00:52:06] the responsibility of a candidate,

[00:52:08] of somebody stepping into those

[00:52:09] these roles and what

[00:52:10] their responsibility is

[00:52:12] to be forthcoming about things.

[00:52:14] I think it's similar.

[00:52:15] We talked a little bit about it

[00:52:16] on the last episode

[00:52:17] of in a hiring capacity.

[00:52:19] You often are asked

[00:52:20] whether you're getting a job

[00:52:22] with Target or the Republican

[00:52:23] Party of Minnesota.

[00:52:25] You get asked questions

[00:52:26] about your past and if there's anything

[00:52:28] that could reflect poorly

[00:52:30] on an institution or a corporation

[00:52:33] or a campaign.

[00:52:34] And it's naive to say

[00:52:36] that this is not these are not things

[00:52:38] that Royce White himself

[00:52:40] or those surrounding him

[00:52:41] and involved with his

[00:52:42] previous campaigns

[00:52:44] had to have understood

[00:52:45] all of this baggage

[00:52:46] and folks have baggage.

[00:52:47] We talk about second chances.

[00:52:48] I'm all about that.

[00:52:50] But then when we get

[00:52:51] talk about that baggage,

[00:52:53] why not then be prepared?

[00:52:55] In all of my campaign experiences

[00:52:57] that working in the communication side,

[00:52:59] we you have those conversations

[00:53:02] about vulnerabilities,

[00:53:03] about issues

[00:53:04] that potentially could come up

[00:53:05] and have those responses drafted.

[00:53:08] You're practiced.

[00:53:08] You're ready to go.

[00:53:10] I think there is a way

[00:53:11] with some candidates

[00:53:12] that could navigate this

[00:53:14] and come out and say

[00:53:15] I did make mistakes,

[00:53:16] having those a brief, concise,

[00:53:18] thoughtful response

[00:53:20] to a lot of these things

[00:53:21] that could maybe go a different way.

[00:53:22] But it just seems one

[00:53:23] we're piling on

[00:53:24] and as one thing after another

[00:53:26] that are very concerning

[00:53:28] from spending to violence

[00:53:31] and how he conducts himself

[00:53:32] and across the board.

[00:53:34] And it all comes down,

[00:53:36] it all boils down to

[00:53:37] the candidate himself

[00:53:39] and I guess not being

[00:53:40] forthcoming of who he is

[00:53:42] and what he stands for,

[00:53:42] what he has done

[00:53:43] and how he wants to move forward

[00:53:45] from mistakes he's made.

[00:53:46] And while it's just a whole lot from that.

[00:53:50] So I want your take

[00:53:52] as somebody who's

[00:53:53] you've obviously been involved

[00:53:55] you've run for deputy chair,

[00:53:57] you've been involved

[00:53:57] in the endorsement battle.

[00:53:59] What of this is on the delegates

[00:54:01] and what of this is on

[00:54:02] the campaigner candidate

[00:54:04] for these,

[00:54:05] none of this being known

[00:54:07] until he already had

[00:54:08] received the endorsement?

[00:54:10] I think that the system

[00:54:11] that was set up failed.

[00:54:12] I think that two things

[00:54:14] we had a campaign

[00:54:15] that I think that was

[00:54:16] somewhat resistant

[00:54:17] to acknowledging the role

[00:54:18] of the nominating committee process.

[00:54:22] That has come through very clearly.

[00:54:24] I think we've heard some of that

[00:54:25] from Darren in our interview.

[00:54:27] I'm opposed to

[00:54:28] I'd also had some frustration

[00:54:30] with nominating committees

[00:54:30] because what happens is

[00:54:32] and for our listeners

[00:54:32] that don't understand

[00:54:33] there's a variety of committees

[00:54:34] that exist in the lead up

[00:54:35] to a state convention.

[00:54:37] We have a rules committee,

[00:54:37] we have a constitution committee.

[00:54:39] One of the other ones

[00:54:40] is a nominating committee.

[00:54:41] Generally the practice

[00:54:42] of the nominating committee

[00:54:43] is to interview the candidates

[00:54:45] and then give a report

[00:54:45] to the delegation,

[00:54:46] to the convention and say

[00:54:48] we found this candidate

[00:54:49] to be qualified

[00:54:51] or non-qualified with reservations.

[00:54:53] What was done in this instance

[00:54:54] with Royce White was there was

[00:54:56] he was qualified with reservations

[00:54:58] and that was I think

[00:55:00] it's a system that I've rejected

[00:55:02] because when I was deputy chair

[00:55:04] I did not like

[00:55:05] because I think it comes at the

[00:55:07] end of the process

[00:55:08] rather than at the beginning.

[00:55:09] These can be discussed.

[00:55:10] None of the material on Royce White

[00:55:12] that came out at the convention

[00:55:14] was in essence

[00:55:15] stuff that wasn't already

[00:55:17] in the public arena.

[00:55:19] What happens in this case though

[00:55:20] is that you had a campaign

[00:55:21] that came in and also didn't

[00:55:22] I think do very thorough vetting.

[00:55:24] Some of the information

[00:55:24] what are we now 10 days

[00:55:26] since Royce White's endorsement

[00:55:27] and we in the campaign

[00:55:29] to the degree which Darren

[00:55:30] is a representative of the campaign

[00:55:31] there's still some confusion

[00:55:33] as what's out there.

[00:55:34] This isn't difficult

[00:55:35] material to find.

[00:55:36] What they need to do

[00:55:37] what someone from the campaign

[00:55:38] needs to do is they need

[00:55:39] to go to a courthouse.

[00:55:40] They need to publicly pull

[00:55:41] these files and then do

[00:55:42] a conversation with their candidate

[00:55:44] to have a debrief.

[00:55:45] The problem is that

[00:55:46] I think part of the reason

[00:55:47] that it's not known fully

[00:55:49] is I don't think the campaign

[00:55:50] wants to accept the premise

[00:55:52] that they know it all

[00:55:53] because then they can dispute

[00:55:54] the existence of it.

[00:55:56] I know how to read.

[00:55:57] I understand court proceedings.

[00:55:59] I know what an OFP is.

[00:56:00] I know that they're granted

[00:56:01] sometimes ex parte.

[00:56:03] These were adjudicated cases.

[00:56:05] This was there was a hearing

[00:56:06] held in this matter.

[00:56:07] Judge in this case did find

[00:56:09] that there were documented instances

[00:56:11] of physical abuse

[00:56:12] a variety of threats.

[00:56:14] That is what the court determined here

[00:56:15] and we can talk about

[00:56:17] the procedural reasons

[00:56:18] but the reality is

[00:56:20] I stand by my position

[00:56:21] that had this information

[00:56:23] fully been shared with the delegates

[00:56:25] he would not have been endorsed.

[00:56:26] I stand by that position

[00:56:28] and I think it's there's been a

[00:56:29] material breach

[00:56:31] of how the endorsement process was run.

[00:56:34] I think that

[00:56:35] there's a lot of people that are

[00:56:37] to blame for that.

[00:56:38] I don't blame the Republican Party

[00:56:39] for the process.

[00:56:40] I think that in this particular instance

[00:56:43] I think a variety of campaigns

[00:56:44] should have done more

[00:56:45] to get information out

[00:56:47] and to get it shared

[00:56:48] because here's the problem.

[00:56:49] Royce White is challenging

[00:56:51] all of these underlying facts.

[00:56:52] It's not as if he's saying

[00:56:53] it's not if he's coming up

[00:56:54] to the microphone and saying

[00:56:55] look folks this is who I am.

[00:56:57] These are the mistakes I made.

[00:56:59] Let's own it.

[00:56:59] That's not what he's doing.

[00:57:00] He's not owning those things.

[00:57:03] He's not saying that this is true.

[00:57:04] He's questioning the existence

[00:57:06] and so the game we're going to play here

[00:57:08] is whether this stuff actually exists

[00:57:10] or we're going to dispute it.

[00:57:11] We're going to call it

[00:57:12] character assassinations.

[00:57:13] This is the vetting process.

[00:57:15] I'm a voter.

[00:57:16] I get to vet the records of people

[00:57:19] and how anyone else chooses

[00:57:20] to vet candidates records is up to them.

[00:57:22] But going down to a courthouse

[00:57:24] and examining public court files

[00:57:26] that have been filed against Royce White

[00:57:27] and show that a court has come

[00:57:30] to a determination that there have been

[00:57:31] that there have been

[00:57:33] instances of physical abuse.

[00:57:36] There have been instances of

[00:57:37] let me just go through these again.

[00:57:39] Physical harm, bodily injury or assault,

[00:57:43] infliction of fear, imminent physical harm,

[00:57:45] bodily injury or assault

[00:57:47] and interfering with an emergency call.

[00:57:49] The court has come to a determination that happened.

[00:57:52] Acts of domestic abuse have occurred,

[00:57:54] including the following.

[00:57:56] Physical harm, bodily injury or assault,

[00:57:59] infliction of fear or imminent physical harm,

[00:58:01] bodily injury or assault

[00:58:03] and interfering with an emergency call.

[00:58:05] What the court has in essence determined

[00:58:07] is that someone was being beat

[00:58:09] while they were trying to call 911

[00:58:11] and the process of that person

[00:58:13] who was placing the not making the 911 call

[00:58:16] was blocked from making that

[00:58:18] as they were attempting to call for help.

[00:58:20] That's not, I'm not gonna entertain the fact

[00:58:23] that that's not in the court file.

[00:58:24] And that's in black and white lettering.

[00:58:26] And I'm not gonna engage in this kind of gaslighting.

[00:58:30] That stuff didn't exist.

[00:58:31] And so we can talk about all these situations

[00:58:35] but I think the problem with Royce White's campaign

[00:58:37] and the people close to him

[00:58:38] is they're just not accepting this stuff

[00:58:40] and they're challenging,

[00:58:42] they're gonna try to gaslight people

[00:58:43] and say that it doesn't exist.

[00:58:45] And it does.

[00:58:46] And that's my frustration.

[00:58:48] If they owned it,

[00:58:49] if they accepted responsibility for what was there,

[00:58:52] that would be the mature step.

[00:58:55] And again, Becky, as we've discussed, knock on wood,

[00:58:57] I've gone through, I've made mistakes,

[00:58:59] a number of mistakes.

[00:59:00] I'm here because people believed in second,

[00:59:02] third and fourth chances were with me.

[00:59:04] In reality, Royce White should be the exact type

[00:59:07] of candidate who's gone through those experiences

[00:59:09] that we should be inviting on this podcast

[00:59:12] and having on because I absolutely identify

[00:59:14] with people who've gone through tough circumstances.

[00:59:18] One of my conditions is that they accept responsibility

[00:59:21] and not gaslight people.

[00:59:23] And so that's my frustration with Royce White's side.

[00:59:28] That's not what's really there.

[00:59:29] You're misreading it.

[00:59:31] Let me explain it to you.

[00:59:32] No, I don't need you to explain to me.

[00:59:34] I know how to read an FCC report.

[00:59:36] I know how to look at this stuff

[00:59:37] and I understand these files.

[00:59:39] And that's where I think the problem is

[00:59:40] that I think even today, Royce White is not

[00:59:44] in a position to be an effective candidate

[00:59:47] for the United States Senate.

[00:59:48] Then what we get to is because when candidates do that,

[00:59:51] what have I consistently said?

[00:59:53] People like when people, not to say

[00:59:57] that what's in Royce White's past is tolerable

[01:00:00] and palatable to voters, but people make mistakes

[01:00:04] and people accept responsibility for their mistakes.

[01:00:07] And I believe, and we've discussed those examples

[01:00:10] of people who've done that.

[01:00:11] That's not what we're getting here with Royce White.

[01:00:13] We're getting someone who is acting online

[01:00:16] and the only kind of lens that we have

[01:00:19] into who someone is, I think,

[01:00:20] and I don't think we've ever discussed this before,

[01:00:22] is social media.

[01:00:23] And that's the lens into their life.

[01:00:26] And so when someone is obnoxious and swears

[01:00:31] and uses, I can't even describe it as foul language,

[01:00:34] but uses just disgusting, crude, misogynistic language

[01:00:39] to describe his enemies and people

[01:00:41] that he disagrees with and anyone who,

[01:00:43] that's a window into who they are.

[01:00:45] When I look at Royce White's behavior online,

[01:00:49] I couple it with what I've seen in the court file

[01:00:51] and what I've seen littered through all these reports.

[01:00:54] This is not someone who I think has the type of control

[01:00:58] and discipline and has full use of their faculties

[01:01:03] to handle the pressure and rigors of a campaign.

[01:01:06] I stand by my position that this is not,

[01:01:09] that this has the potential to not end very well

[01:01:12] for Royce White.

[01:01:14] And we've gotten to the point of partisanship

[01:01:16] where I think that there's some substantive issues here.

[01:01:19] So I wanna hit on a couple of the things

[01:01:21] you just mentioned.

[01:01:22] I wanna start with, I was going back

[01:01:24] and thinking about our previous conversation

[01:01:26] with Sarah Gad, who was running for another long shot seat

[01:01:29] and race and had a very troubling past,

[01:01:32] but she was very forthcoming.

[01:01:34] She talked about her past and what she has learned

[01:01:36] and how it drove her to get her law degree

[01:01:39] and to be the candidate she is

[01:01:40] and why she wants to serve.

[01:01:42] And Hughes was very open and honest

[01:01:44] with the troubles that she has had with the law

[01:01:47] and being in jail and prison and the like.

[01:01:49] And now not saying that we have the exact,

[01:01:52] it's not apples and apples here,

[01:01:53] but we're getting none of that acknowledgement

[01:01:56] and acceptance and really thoughtful response

[01:01:59] of why those things may be true

[01:02:01] and how we're gonna move forward and learn.

[01:02:03] And I think that's, in fact,

[01:02:05] I think we're getting quite the opposite.

[01:02:07] In some of these statements we're getting,

[01:02:09] again, it's exactly what you were talking.

[01:02:11] It's the gaslighting,

[01:02:12] it's the not acknowledging really what it is

[01:02:14] when one of the questionable spending was $1,200

[01:02:17] at a full nude strip club and when asked about it,

[01:02:20] White said, I don't necessarily recall that.

[01:02:22] I'm sure it's just probably somebody using

[01:02:24] the wrong card in their wallet.

[01:02:25] If you're spending $1,200 at a strip club,

[01:02:27] I'm pretty sure that person's gonna make sure

[01:02:29] no, you're not using a campaign card for that.

[01:02:32] Also in response to the spending,

[01:02:33] he said, what charges are being considered extravagant?

[01:02:36] Was it extravagant for Black Lives Matter

[01:02:37] to buy mansions?

[01:02:38] Was that extravagant?

[01:02:40] Is it extravagant for Ilhan Omar

[01:02:41] to have paid her own spouse $500,000 out of her campaign?

[01:02:44] Now again, it goes on and on.

[01:02:46] And again, it just isn't us saying that's interesting.

[01:02:51] I was, which I wanna get into a comment

[01:02:53] that Darren did share that he wasn't privy

[01:02:55] to this report.

[01:02:56] There is a way to respond and say,

[01:02:58] I didn't fully look through that.

[01:02:59] If there are any discrepancies,

[01:03:01] we're going to look through,

[01:03:02] make sure that they file,

[01:03:03] we filed everything properly.

[01:03:05] If there is a way to excuse it,

[01:03:07] it's this way of messaging that just really stirs me,

[01:03:11] rubs me the wrong way.

[01:03:13] It's really just really frustrating.

[01:03:16] And I think in particular,

[01:03:17] I was the Twitter comment you made

[01:03:20] about how we perceive people

[01:03:22] is that snapshot on Twitter.

[01:03:24] And I believe you had mentioned

[01:03:27] or even broke some of the news

[01:03:28] about this domestic incident.

[01:03:31] And the candidate replied to you.

[01:03:33] And I think that I feel like that was the one

[01:03:35] where it was the excuse

[01:03:36] of I'm still with that woman.

[01:03:37] So you're brushing it off,

[01:03:39] which there's so many trouble,

[01:03:42] some things in this

[01:03:43] and in the conduct we're seeing on Twitter,

[01:03:45] I went through again,

[01:03:46] I know I said talked about some of how

[01:03:48] he used the C word so much.

[01:03:50] He tweeted the word dumb ass

[01:03:52] in response to people eight times this

[01:03:54] or 10 times this month alone.

[01:03:55] So these are people,

[01:03:56] voters who are saying something,

[01:03:58] tweeting to him

[01:03:58] and he's calling them dumb asses.

[01:04:00] Is this who we really think is going to be

[01:04:03] not only somebody that's gonna garner our votes,

[01:04:06] but it's not gonna deter other people.

[01:04:07] It's not gonna distract from the Republican messaging

[01:04:09] and the strong policy that we need to have

[01:04:12] messaging on policy that we need to have

[01:04:14] going into November.

[01:04:15] I have so many concerns.

[01:04:18] I could not agree with you more.

[01:04:20] And I think that one thing that is important for me,

[01:04:24] just to go back to it

[01:04:25] is what you just detailed

[01:04:27] and is that we can't,

[01:04:30] I'm just not gonna be gaslit.

[01:04:31] I'm just not gonna be gaslit.

[01:04:32] We can disagree about,

[01:04:35] we can disagree about some of the facts of the case.

[01:04:37] We can disagree about some of the procedures,

[01:04:38] but I'm not gonna pretend that they don't exist.

[01:04:40] And what we have right now is we have a campaign

[01:04:43] where I think it is in crisis for a couple of reasons

[01:04:46] because they have a candidate out there

[01:04:48] who is wanting to be,

[01:04:52] who has an online persona

[01:04:54] that does not match apparently

[01:04:56] what exists when the cameras aren't there.

[01:04:58] Because one of the discussions that we've heard,

[01:05:00] we heard in the interview was,

[01:05:01] Royce isn't like this when,

[01:05:03] he's not like this in a lot of circumstances,

[01:05:06] that he doesn't understand

[01:05:07] where this type of online behavior comes from.

[01:05:10] And I can see that, I can see that,

[01:05:12] but that's not a good step

[01:05:14] because what I have always,

[01:05:16] and again, my social media policy

[01:05:18] doesn't have to be what everyone else's is.

[01:05:20] My personal social media policy

[01:05:21] is I would never say to something, to someone online,

[01:05:25] that I wouldn't say to them directly.

[01:05:26] And so everything I write has to be through the lens

[01:05:29] of would I say this to someone if I was speaking to them?

[01:05:32] And that's fine if other people don't have that approach.

[01:05:35] But it's also fair for me to say

[01:05:37] that looking in the way that he handles himself online

[01:05:40] is also a reflection of who he is as a person.

[01:05:44] And the challenge that exists

[01:05:46] is how do we think that someone

[01:05:48] who speaks that way to people

[01:05:50] is going to operate inside the United States Senate

[01:05:53] or in any type of collaborative work arrangement

[01:05:57] or work engagement?

[01:05:58] I have been saying to people,

[01:06:00] and I will say this to you,

[01:06:02] I have spoken a lot to female voters

[01:06:05] since Royce White's endorsement.

[01:06:08] And I have said to a lot of them,

[01:06:09] this guy raises so many red flags

[01:06:13] because I think what it's about

[01:06:15] is about power and control.

[01:06:17] I'm not an undecided voter.

[01:06:19] I'm not voting for Royce White.

[01:06:21] In any way, shape, or form am I voting for Royce White?

[01:06:23] I will not support him in any capacity whatsoever.

[01:06:26] I'm not an undecided voter.

[01:06:28] So he arguably and ostensibly

[01:06:30] shouldn't spend any time engaging with me on anything.

[01:06:33] But he doesn't have the discipline to not do that.

[01:06:36] And what I have described,

[01:06:37] this behavior that I see a pattern of behavior.

[01:06:40] I see court filings which show a lot of ugliness

[01:06:44] and not pretend ugliness

[01:06:46] like we're gonna agree to disagree.

[01:06:49] This is ugliness.

[01:06:50] Courts have come to the determination

[01:06:52] that domestic abuse occurred.

[01:06:55] Physical harm, bodily injury or assault,

[01:06:58] infliction of fear, imminent physical harm,

[01:07:01] bodily injury or assault

[01:07:04] and interfering with an emergency call.

[01:07:07] All those things are very serious.

[01:07:08] You couple that with his online behavior

[01:07:11] and how he talks with people

[01:07:13] and how he interacts with people.

[01:07:15] And to me he is, I stand by it.

[01:07:17] I still believe he is combustible,

[01:07:20] that he is prone to exploding.

[01:07:23] And again, my analogy that I said last week

[01:07:25] of him being someone,

[01:07:26] it's like throwing a couple sticks of dynamite

[01:07:28] in the car backseat is what it's like.

[01:07:31] This is a candidate that's gonna explode.

[01:07:34] And again, I get the whole narrative

[01:07:36] like we should be shaking up the system

[01:07:38] and all that type of stuff.

[01:07:39] There's a big difference between

[01:07:41] a shaking up the system type candidate

[01:07:44] and someone who acts in this type of foul,

[01:07:47] disrespectful and physically abusive way towards people.

[01:07:52] And all of those combined lead me to believe

[01:07:55] that this is not someone who's changed.

[01:07:58] This is not someone who's learned from their mistakes.

[01:08:00] And this is not someone who is in any type of position

[01:08:07] to be introspective.

[01:08:08] There's not one bit of responsibility

[01:08:11] in anything Royce White ever says.

[01:08:13] And let me just point something out to you.

[01:08:15] We're supposed to be the party of personal responsibility.

[01:08:18] How many people bring that up to me

[01:08:19] about things that I've done in my past, mistakes?

[01:08:22] I've made, Michael used to be,

[01:08:24] yes, I agree with you.

[01:08:25] That's why I've accepted responsibility.

[01:08:27] That's why I continue to express responsibility.

[01:08:30] I don't run, haven't run from,

[01:08:31] but this guy wants to have this discussion

[01:08:34] as to whether it actually happened or not.

[01:08:36] And that what I think is so upsetting

[01:08:38] because to me, it's just another example

[01:08:42] of how this campaign isn't ready for prime time.

[01:08:44] Because let me say to you,

[01:08:46] some of this information came out,

[01:08:48] he was endorsed on a Saturday,

[01:08:51] courts were open on Monday morning.

[01:08:53] So within 48 hours of getting endorsed,

[01:08:56] the campaign could have had all of this information.

[01:08:58] All they needed to do is go to a courthouse.

[01:09:00] And then you sit down and you talk with the candidate.

[01:09:02] And apparently there's, he's still maybe

[01:09:04] in some relationship with his former wife.

[01:09:07] I don't think they're married again,

[01:09:08] but sit down and have a conversation.

[01:09:10] What happened here?

[01:09:11] What was going on?

[01:09:12] We are now 10 days from that process.

[01:09:15] And the campaign still does not have

[01:09:18] a unified consistent message as to what's there.

[01:09:21] And that's where I think the challenges is going to be

[01:09:24] is because they, what I think they're gonna wanna discuss

[01:09:26] is they're gonna wanna quibble as to what was done.

[01:09:29] The reality is this, we have a campaign,

[01:09:31] we have Royce White's campaign

[01:09:33] when he ran for Congress in 2002,

[01:09:36] where according to FEC reports,

[01:09:38] he spent over 1,200 bucks at a strip club

[01:09:42] in Miami Beach, in Miami.

[01:09:44] There's hundreds, there's over $100,000

[01:09:48] in unexplained wire transfers and checks.

[01:09:51] That is very serious.

[01:09:53] And at some point, I understand that this is,

[01:09:57] I understand based on just how I see

[01:09:59] his communication style that Royce White

[01:10:01] might not be the most forthcoming person,

[01:10:04] but at some point there becomes a responsibility

[01:10:08] to those that are standing around them

[01:10:09] to know this stuff.

[01:10:11] And I'm very appreciative that Darren came

[01:10:15] on our podcast and we discussed them.

[01:10:17] And I wanna always have that space

[01:10:19] where we have people on our podcasts

[01:10:21] and we can have discussions.

[01:10:22] But I just have to say, I think that time has passed now.

[01:10:24] I think if I can see it, if I can find it

[01:10:27] and I'm not affiliated with the campaign,

[01:10:29] that campaign should have it.

[01:10:30] Because the way out of this for them

[01:10:33] is to own it, accept it,

[01:10:36] and show that they can learn from it.

[01:10:38] I don't think the campaign is capable,

[01:10:40] I don't think the candidate is capable of that at all.

[01:10:43] And what concerns me so much

[01:10:45] is some of, it's the combination

[01:10:48] of the combustibility of him.

[01:10:49] It's how he's acting online with just rough, coarse,

[01:10:54] obnoxious, crude, disgusting language,

[01:10:56] coupled with what's in his past track record.

[01:11:00] This is not someone who I think is learned,

[01:11:02] who has learned much and has not grown and developed.

[01:11:05] And I'm not interested in doing anything to platform that.

[01:11:09] I think it's likely we can have

[01:11:11] some off air discussions.

[01:11:12] I'd be open to having maybe Darren come back on

[01:11:14] and we can discuss about that offline.

[01:11:16] But I'd be really hard pressed, Becky,

[01:11:18] to vote.

[01:11:19] I'd be really hard pressed to see

[01:11:21] where I would feel comfortable

[01:11:23] and would wanna platform Royce White

[01:11:25] because I think there's, honestly,

[01:11:28] I think he's not all there

[01:11:30] and I think there's something wrong.

[01:11:33] Yeah, I don't know that I would be comfortable

[01:11:35] with that either.

[01:11:36] It's not certainly somebody,

[01:11:37] the type of person I insert myself

[01:11:39] into regular conversations with willingly on the regular.

[01:11:44] So we can certainly discuss that.

[01:11:46] But one thing I do wanna hit on before we wrap up here

[01:11:49] is what we ended up talking at the end with Darren

[01:11:52] in the path forwards.

[01:11:53] There is, we talked prior to the endorsement,

[01:11:57] Joe Frazier was the other candidate

[01:11:58] that some expected to come out of this.

[01:12:01] From my understanding of what I've seen so far,

[01:12:03] that door has not been shut,

[01:12:04] though yes, he did say he was going to abide

[01:12:06] by the endorsement.

[01:12:07] And this is where I wanna hit on

[01:12:09] a little bit of some issue I took

[01:12:11] with Darren's response to this.

[01:12:13] Basically saying that would be then a broken promise

[01:12:16] and that your promise then means nothing.

[01:12:18] And so that should tarnish enough of Joe's campaign

[01:12:21] to not let him be successful moving forward.

[01:12:25] For my personal, you don't get to have a moral compass

[01:12:29] on the endorsement and not have a moral compass

[01:12:31] about everything else we've discussed, right?

[01:12:32] You don't get to say a broken endorsement process,

[01:12:36] a promise holds more weight than how you,

[01:12:40] if you have physical restraining, physical abuse

[01:12:44] in your past against your wife,

[01:12:46] who you should be cherishing and living

[01:12:48] and holding on a platform.

[01:12:51] You shouldn't have more of a moral compass

[01:12:54] about that endorsement, biding by the endorsement

[01:12:57] than you do about honoring promises to donors

[01:13:00] to spend their money respectfully,

[01:13:02] being respectful to voters or just people in general.

[01:13:04] It doesn't have to be all of these,

[01:13:06] these don't have to be voters

[01:13:07] that he's interacting with and being disrespectful.

[01:13:09] Just way you conduct yourself with people.

[01:13:12] These, and I know times are different.

[01:13:15] I grew up in a very much the office of the president

[01:13:19] and regardless of whether you agree with him,

[01:13:21] it should be somebody that is looked up to.

[01:13:23] These are role models.

[01:13:24] There's a reason I got into politics

[01:13:25] is because the men and women who served in Congress,

[01:13:28] who served at the state legislature

[01:13:30] are people that I looked up to,

[01:13:31] who I aspired to work with

[01:13:33] and to be a part of their lives

[01:13:34] and to be a part of changing society

[01:13:37] and how we live and making life better.

[01:13:39] And this is just not somebody who I believe stands

[01:13:42] for that.

[01:13:43] And I just feel like to me,

[01:13:45] we've talked a lot about doing away

[01:13:46] with the endorsement process.

[01:13:47] So it's not like this is news breaking here,

[01:13:51] but abiding by the endorsement

[01:13:52] and fly out the window for all I care

[01:13:54] when it comes to this

[01:13:54] because the delegates were duped,

[01:13:57] voters are got a candidate who is not worthy

[01:14:00] of being the Republican endorsed candidate.

[01:14:03] And I believe that we Republican voters

[01:14:06] and just Minnesotans in general deserve a better option

[01:14:10] and deserve an option in general in it.

[01:14:11] And I hope Joe Frazier runs for the primary.

[01:14:15] First of all, incredibly well said.

[01:14:17] You touched on something that I think you made

[01:14:19] very well said on your part

[01:14:21] about the fidelity to the endorsement process,

[01:14:24] their desire to hold the endorsement process

[01:14:26] so near and dear, but not some of these other things.

[01:14:29] I don't know who, my hope is that someone runs.

[01:14:33] I don't know who that person's going to be

[01:14:35] because I do think the system is broken.

[01:14:37] I think the system is, the system didn't work.

[01:14:41] And when I say the system is not working,

[01:14:42] the system is we endorsed a candidate 10 days ago

[01:14:46] and right now we still don't have, I think,

[01:14:48] a campaign that fully understands the scope

[01:14:51] and depth of the problem that their candidate is in.

[01:14:55] And to me, part of the reason why they don't know that

[01:14:58] is because for two reasons.

[01:15:00] Their candidate isn't telling them, number one.

[01:15:02] Number two, there's not an interest, I think,

[01:15:06] in knowing because then you're knowledgeable

[01:15:09] and if you're knowledgeable, then you can argue on the facts.

[01:15:12] And I don't think that there's a desire on their part

[01:15:14] to argue on the facts of these matters.

[01:15:16] I think they would rather frame it

[01:15:19] through the information that they know.

[01:15:20] And so in some instances,

[01:15:22] availing them of the record is not,

[01:15:25] it's not just, it's a strategic decision

[01:15:28] to not understand the facts

[01:15:30] so you can play ignorant in some ways.

[01:15:31] And so-

[01:15:32] Possible deniability, right?

[01:15:34] Yes, and so I hope that's,

[01:15:36] but a part of me, that's what I think is going on

[01:15:38] because far too much time has passed.

[01:15:39] Again, if I can find it and someone can provide it to me

[01:15:42] and share with me, it's out there for others to consume.

[01:15:45] And that's where I think the system is failing.

[01:15:47] It's not just the endorsement process,

[01:15:49] it's how this campaign is running itself right now.

[01:15:51] And during this very unique window,

[01:15:53] I think any and all candidates

[01:15:55] who wish to seek the endorsement

[01:15:57] to wanna run for the United States Senate should.

[01:15:59] I think Frazier right now

[01:16:01] is in the best position to challenge.

[01:16:04] I hope he does, I hope he seeks the legal primary.

[01:16:07] I don't know if he will, but I hope someone does

[01:16:08] because this system isn't working.

[01:16:11] It didn't work on the day Roy Swite was endorsed

[01:16:14] and it's not working right now

[01:16:16] because this is a campaign

[01:16:17] that's not I think taking this seriously.

[01:16:20] A lot of times you've been there

[01:16:22] and it's probably in some circumstances

[01:16:23] I know that I've been where I've seen candidates

[01:16:25] that win the endorsement and it overwhelms them.

[01:16:29] I will frequently say sometimes

[01:16:31] that if you win the lottery,

[01:16:33] that doesn't mean you're good at business, okay?

[01:16:35] Again, if you win the lottery,

[01:16:36] that does not mean you're good at business.

[01:16:38] We sometimes confused the fact

[01:16:40] that someone's won the endorsement

[01:16:42] as an indication that they know what they're doing.

[01:16:44] This is exactly one of those situations.

[01:16:47] This campaign does not know what they're doing.

[01:16:50] And right now I think they're talking about,

[01:16:52] they're focused on the wrong things

[01:16:54] and I don't know that they're gonna ever come

[01:16:57] to the help that they can get

[01:16:58] and fully get out of this hole.

[01:17:01] I understand the kind of the messaging

[01:17:05] of we're raising a lot of money.

[01:17:06] I don't believe there's any type of money

[01:17:08] coming into this race that is gonna put them

[01:17:11] in any type of credible position

[01:17:13] to challenge Senator Klobuchar.

[01:17:14] Nor do I think that if there was a contest

[01:17:18] of matching that I think that Royce White

[01:17:20] is a credible alternative to Senator Klobuchar.

[01:17:22] Again, my position is that I like campaigns

[01:17:25] because they can sometimes be for lack of a better phrase

[01:17:28] to steal a phrase that's used,

[01:17:29] the laboratories of ideas.

[01:17:31] We can come up with good ideas

[01:17:32] and we can have those type of polity discussion.

[01:17:35] I'm old fashioned in that sense.

[01:17:37] I don't think there's anything redeemable

[01:17:40] that's gonna come out of a Klobuchar

[01:17:41] versus Royce White campaign.

[01:17:43] I don't think there's any campaign

[01:17:45] where I think Royce White is gonna elevate the discussion,

[01:17:48] open minds or do anything.

[01:17:49] I think he is truly a corrosive caustic.

[01:17:54] I think he is rough

[01:17:56] and I just don't see any redeeming value to him

[01:17:59] as a candidate of anything at all.

[01:18:01] I think he is someone who is in desperate need of help.

[01:18:05] The campaign trail is not the place

[01:18:07] to get that type of help.

[01:18:07] And I'm looking at that through the lens of someone

[01:18:11] who I see reacting to the pressures

[01:18:13] of a campaign on social media

[01:18:15] and it's through that lens, that window that I'm seeing

[01:18:17] that but I would agree with you.

[01:18:18] I don't see how it's better,

[01:18:20] how it's gonna get better.

[01:18:21] I do hope someone's gonna get in

[01:18:23] to have there be some more of a responsible discussion

[01:18:26] on issues related to the United States Senate.

[01:18:29] But I think whoever it is,

[01:18:30] Senator Klobuchar is gonna mop up quite well

[01:18:33] and I'm very appreciative of you

[01:18:34] for allowing that conversation to happen

[01:18:37] and you and I staking out the claim

[01:18:38] of kind of the boundaries on this show.

[01:18:40] We wanna have responsible conversations with people

[01:18:43] and have discussions

[01:18:44] but there is a limit as to what we're going to do.

[01:18:47] Absolutely and I wanna end with two comments.

[01:18:50] First being that I am sure we're gonna move forward

[01:18:54] and continue to have conversations about this campaign,

[01:18:56] whether it's somebody else getting in race,

[01:18:58] whether it's answers were given, more questions,

[01:19:00] what it might be.

[01:19:01] We talk about the news of the week

[01:19:03] and so I guarantee it's not the last time

[01:19:05] we're gonna be having conversations

[01:19:06] about Royce White and his campaign.

[01:19:08] So stay tuned for that.

[01:19:09] And then the last thing,

[01:19:10] we certainly need to circle back

[01:19:12] to our campaign talk episode

[01:19:14] because I love Waffle Man,

[01:19:16] I love schticks and campaigning

[01:19:17] and I wish we could go back to that

[01:19:19] but that was a fun little story

[01:19:21] so I appreciated Darren sharing that

[01:19:23] and I really wish it was you in that waffle suit,

[01:19:26] I gotta say.

[01:19:27] But thanks for giving us a little eye

[01:19:28] into your past and previous campaigns

[01:19:32] and for bringing Darren on board.

[01:19:34] I think it was a good conversation to be in.

[01:19:36] Thank you so much.

[01:19:38] Bye.

[01:19:38] Bye.

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[01:19:42] to The Breakdown with Brocko Benbeki.

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