On this bonus episode of The Break Down with Brodkorb and Becky, Michael Brodkorb is joined by former Speaker of the Minnesota House of Representatives Kurt Daudt and former Crystal City Council Member Jeff Kolb to break down the developing story about the criminal charge against DFL State Senator Nicole Mitchell.
They will discuss the ongoing and developing legal issues surrounding Senator Nicole Mitchell, the implications they could have on the current legislative session, and how they could potentially remake the political landscape in Minnesota.
The Break Down with Brodkorb and Becky will return with a new episode later this week.
Get full access to On The Record with Michael Brodkorb at michaelbrodkorb.substack.com/subscribe
[00:00:00] Welcome to The Break Down with Brodkorb and Becky, a weekly podcast that breaks down politics,
[00:00:16] policy and current affairs. I'm Michael Brodkorb. Becky Scherr is off today. We are bringing you
[00:00:22] another bonus episode this week based on the developing story about the criminal charge against
[00:00:26] DFL State Senator Nicole Mitchell. Today I'm joined by former Speaker of the Minnesota House of
[00:00:31] Representatives Kurt Daut and former Crystal City Council member Jeff Cole who is a frequent co-host
[00:00:37] and guest on this podcast. We're going to discuss the ongoing and developing legal issues surrounding
[00:00:44] Senator Mitchell, the implications it could have on the current legislative session
[00:00:48] and how it could potentially remake the political landscape in Minnesota. Thank you so much for
[00:00:53] joining us for this special bonus episode and we hope you enjoy the show.
[00:01:01] I'm excited to be here today to host a special bonus episode of The Break Down with Brodkorb
[00:01:06] and Becky in order of previous appearances. We have the honorable Jeff Cole who previously
[00:01:12] served on the Crystal City Council and has been here on the podcast multiple times as a
[00:01:17] guest and also co-hosting when I've been on available. We also have a very important guest
[00:01:23] first time appearance, former Speaker of the House Kurt Daut. Mr. Speaker it's great to have you,
[00:01:28] Jeff, it's always great to see you too. Thanks. Yeah thanks guys for having me on. It's my honor
[00:01:34] to be on with you guys so thanks for inviting me. For our listeners, Representative Daut served in
[00:01:39] the Minnesota Legislature first elected in 2010. He stepped away from the legislature just
[00:01:45] before the start of this previous this session that we're in now and he currently works as
[00:01:50] a consultant. He's the former Speaker of the House. He served as Speaker from 2015 to 2019.
[00:01:56] A wealth of institutional experience, wealth of political experience, I've known him for a very
[00:02:02] long time and I think it's fair to say Mr. Speaker that this circumstance that developed
[00:02:08] that we're going to discuss here today about a state senator you've offered us an interesting
[00:02:12] amount of commentary and analysis on your Twitter page which Jeff and I discussed
[00:02:17] we thought would make you the absolute perfect guest to discuss this.
[00:02:21] Yeah I don't have staff anymore to tell me to put my we used to have a blue pair of mittens in the
[00:02:27] caucus and we call them Twittons and somebody got if somebody in the caucus got out of control
[00:02:33] on Twitter, we would make them wear these mittens so they couldn't tweet. Unfortunately there
[00:02:39] was no one there to tell me to stop. How often were they just kept in Representative Garofalo's
[00:02:45] office or how did that he should get his own that is exactly why we had them know that's great.
[00:02:50] Yeah we representative Garofalo has been on the show multiple times and we hope to have him back
[00:02:55] that was meant in jest and just friendly banter a representative. Let's discuss why we're here
[00:03:01] today news broke within the last 40 hours that a Minnesota state senator from Woodbury
[00:03:06] Cole Mitchell was charged and booked into the Becker County Jail on suspicion of first
[00:03:12] degree burglary. She's a state senator from Woodbury but she was arrested all the way in Becker
[00:03:19] County into Trailings. Jeff why don't you describe some of the background of the case?
[00:03:23] Sure before we get too far into it I want to do just a little bit of housekeeping for the
[00:03:27] audience. We are this is a podcast we are recording at about noon on Wednesday. The story
[00:03:34] the senator was arrested on Monday morning at about 45 in the morning so it's a fast
[00:03:41] moving story it's possible more news on this will break as we're speaking but we're going to do the
[00:03:45] best to get you the most up-to-date information that we have available. It is the story is developing
[00:03:50] as we speak with new statements coming out but the long and short of it is the senator was arrested
[00:03:58] in her stepmother's home according to the charging documents she was charged with first
[00:04:05] degree burglary according to the charging documents she was in the home dressed in all
[00:04:10] black with a black hat she had a flashlight with a sock over it and she entered through the window
[00:04:19] left I believe she left her backpack in the window if I understand that part of it correctly the
[00:04:24] backpack was like stuck in the window maybe she was trying to go out the window when the backpack
[00:04:29] was holding the window jars yeah something like that and then when the police came she made
[00:04:35] a few comments to the police before she was Miranda is she made the comment obviously I'm not very good
[00:04:40] at this and then looks like she got into a little verbal altercation with the stepmother while the
[00:04:46] police were there and told the stepmother that I'm only here to try and get back some things
[00:04:51] that belong to me or some things that you won't give me because you've stopped talking to me
[00:04:56] that was mentioned in the charging documents and then also she after she was Miranda is
[00:05:02] she told the police I know I did something bad which paints a pretty clear picture of what happened
[00:05:09] that night she also admitted to leaving her home at 1 a.m and then driving the three and a half
[00:05:16] hours or two and a half hours to Detroit Lakes and then so she made a number of admissions
[00:05:23] and talked about why she had been motivated to do this related to her father's ashes
[00:05:28] there was also a laptop found in her backpack that when the police opened the laptop it opened to
[00:05:37] a login page with her stepmother's name on it her explanation for that was that her stepmother gave
[00:05:42] her a laptop a long time ago she was arrested she spent the night in jail and she was arraigned
[00:05:49] Tuesday during the day around 11 o'clock in the morning on Tuesday and then came I soon
[00:05:55] came back to the Twin Cities and then released a I don't even know how to characterize what word
[00:06:00] would you use to characterize the statement that she released when she got back I can't
[00:06:04] there's a lot of creative creative yeah that's a good one she has come up with her side of the
[00:06:11] story which is she was very worried about her stepmother who has Alzheimer's and she was going
[00:06:18] to check on her health and then and it was all just a big misunderstanding so I think that's the
[00:06:25] recap of start there and we can go from there mr. Speaker I would like to ask you if I can you have
[00:06:30] been aside from being speaker when you're the speaker position you were also majority leader
[00:06:35] correct I was one minority leader correct minority leader was I was speaker for four years
[00:06:40] and then I was minority leader for another four years so I was leader of the caucus for 10
[00:06:44] years total yeah which really is one of the longest serving in in recent history I guess
[00:06:49] Sviggum is the only one that's served longer than that as leader Hortman will probably pass that
[00:06:55] shortly if she gets reelected the reason I ask is because in both of those roles in one you're
[00:07:01] the leader of in essence the entire legislative body yeah and another you are the leader of
[00:07:07] your caucus the republicans and so in both of those capacities you have had a leadership
[00:07:11] role over sometimes all of the members or just members of your caucus describe the dynamics that
[00:07:17] you think are going on when a member in the house or senate gets in trouble what type of things are
[00:07:22] going on particularly inside the caucus and from a leadership perspective sure I will start with
[00:07:28] these calls are the worst when you are the leader of the caucus you are the parent of all
[00:07:34] of these members and if it's someone in you I should preface that to say they're the worst
[00:07:38] when you get them and it's one of your members I always liked getting these when it was the other
[00:07:42] side because it gave you an opportunity to point out the inconsistencies in how they would handle
[00:07:47] this situation and but they really are the worst and and when you're the caucus leader you become
[00:07:52] the parent for all these members we had I think the most I had was 77 and the least I had was like
[00:07:58] 60 I can't even remember now maybe 62 and or maybe 60 but it's those folks are people they
[00:08:08] make mistakes they have they they make had they have lapses of judgment and sometimes they go through
[00:08:14] tough times in their life they maybe drink too much or have a substance abuse problem or
[00:08:20] make a bad financial decision or just do or say something really stupid and it's immediately in
[00:08:26] the world that we live in when somebody in the political sphere says or does something like
[00:08:30] this it becomes a big story immediately and how you respond to it is important how you
[00:08:37] apologize for it how you work through it is determines your ability to be effective in the
[00:08:41] legislature going forward if at all some of these I think have a potential to disqualify
[00:08:47] someone from running for office but the caucus also is a family and so you sometimes you feel
[00:08:54] sympathetic and you want to be supportive you also are angry and I can't believe you did this
[00:08:59] right in the same way that a parent does with their own child it's challenging but then you
[00:09:04] also need to figure out as the caucus leader you have to figure out what's the best strategy here to
[00:09:08] what sort of message can we put out to either explain this or apologize for it or whatever is
[00:09:14] there when I was Speaker of the House I had to decide on is there some sort of punishment
[00:09:18] I actually removed members of my own caucus from committee chairmanship I think twice I don't
[00:09:26] know that the other side has really done that have removed our members from committees and been
[00:09:31] punitive that way but I don't know that they've really punished their own members in the same way
[00:09:35] but I always tried to be very consistent and then you also have to get the team together
[00:09:40] and talk about it talk it through make sure people understand make sure that you don't have any
[00:09:45] buddy out talking about things in an inappropriate way and one of the things I noticed last night
[00:09:51] was Democrats or elected Democrats are pretty much silent on this I didn't see anybody on
[00:09:57] Twitter I didn't see anybody engaging in the in the town square the virtual town square
[00:10:04] of social media you got to make sure you keep that under wraps and then try to come up with a
[00:10:09] path forward and I think that these the circumstances of each situation dictate
[00:10:16] the ability whether you can do that or not and I had members that had to resign
[00:10:19] and we had to fill those seats with special elections and and I had members that I thought
[00:10:24] were going to have to resign who actually came through their controversy with no issues whatsoever
[00:10:31] so I think how you handle these situations in the moment and how honest you are with the public
[00:10:35] really can help determine whether you're going to have a problem or not as we speak right now
[00:10:41] they the DFL the senate DFL is in a caucus meeting obviously none of us are in the room
[00:10:49] but based on your experience and what does that meeting is like
[00:10:53] what do you think is happening in the room are do people go through the whole grief cycle all at
[00:10:59] once and you have some people mad and some people sad and some people is there is there yelling
[00:11:04] are we are what is the dynamics of that room look like at the moment it really can be all
[00:11:08] of the above and maybe before I talk about that we should talk about like the importance of
[00:11:14] the dynamics of politics in the state of Minnesota right now we have a senate that has
[00:11:17] a one seat majority she is in the majority party if if she for some reason cannot vote or has to
[00:11:24] resign it means that we have a tied senate and we have what is it four weeks left of the legislative
[00:11:29] session are a little bit less than that maybe three and a half weeks three weeks so the stakes
[00:11:32] are very high right and the majority party the democrats in the senate also have a majority
[00:11:37] in the house and they have a democrat governor so they have a trifecta and can do anything that
[00:11:42] they want this is the last three weeks or three and a half weeks of a biennium where they've had
[00:11:49] complete control and sometimes you leave things till the end thinking there's not going to be a problem
[00:11:54] we should be able to pass whatever we want and some of these things will still work out the
[00:11:58] details internally and we'll pass them at the end this puts in jeopardy anything that they were
[00:12:03] thinking about passing between now and the end of session which so the stakes are very high
[00:12:08] back to your question about the what's going on in the caucus meeting if you if you put it look at
[00:12:14] it through the lens of how high the stakes are in this situation you can have I would assume that
[00:12:19] there is a lot of hey we really are sympathetic about the fact that this was a family situation
[00:12:24] and that you lost your father and you're grieving and maybe struggling with how to deal with a
[00:12:29] stepmom that you sounds like you don't get along with and trying to receive retrieve
[00:12:34] some of your dad's things that are so sentimental to you I think everybody can be sympathetic with
[00:12:39] that sort of situation and then the flip side of that is you did something incredibly stupid and
[00:12:45] in my years in the legislature I always think there's nothing that I've seen it all there's
[00:12:49] nothing that can shock me anymore this one was shocking and that the gross lapse of judgment
[00:12:55] to enter someone's home in such a it's almost comical how bad the planning or thought process
[00:13:03] must have been to to leader she did have her senate ID on her at the time when she was arrested right so
[00:13:09] I mean that does it so you have on one hand you had it was very thought out and very well planned
[00:13:15] definitely premeditated but on the other hand I think it was an understatement when she told the
[00:13:20] cops um I'm obviously not very good at this uh-huh see they the she's not in the room today
[00:13:29] she's not at the Capitol today so senator Mitchell is she is not at the Capitol so I think
[00:13:34] the interesting dynamic of that is that then your peers are sitting in a room talking about you
[00:13:39] and you're not there unless of course she could dial in or potentially but there's certainly a
[00:13:45] an emotional difference between having someone on a zoom screen and then having somebody standing
[00:13:49] in front of you and what they're going to do I think what's interesting is as this story unfolded
[00:13:55] it became clear pretty early that this was some kind of family dispute when the information came
[00:14:02] out about where she was and where the police report was and and I think some people overplayed
[00:14:08] their hand immediately or but a little bit too harsh and didn't wait for enough facts to unfold
[00:14:13] I think what really gassed the situation or what will continue to gas the situation is
[00:14:18] the statement that she put out which asks you which asks everybody to just suspend reality entirely
[00:14:25] and she puts out a completely different set of facts than what's in the charging documents
[00:14:30] basically her attorney came out just a few minutes ago and said she had a key to the house
[00:14:35] well she told the police that she had entered through the window so if she had a key to the
[00:14:39] house why did she go through the window I also have to say she has probably one of the worst
[00:14:46] attorneys that I've seen trying to handle this case in public
[00:14:51] so the attorney actually went out and essentially admitted to the elements of the crime and said
[00:14:56] in a statement to the Star Tribune yeah she was trying to get in and out without being noticed and
[00:15:02] then also she was just trying to get some stuff back that she thought belonged to her but there's
[00:15:06] a dispute about whether it really belonged to her and to have your attorney go out and basically
[00:15:10] say sure she broke into the house and took stuff that doesn't belong to her but we should
[00:15:14] really all calm down about this was just amazing to watch I just couldn't believe to your point about
[00:15:19] not being able to be shocked this one has taken like every every strange turn and I was really
[00:15:24] strange I think too there's a dynamic at play here where automatically the people in her caucus
[00:15:30] who are she's part of that caucus family and they will rally behind her and want to support her
[00:15:36] as anyone would as a family member and we've all had family members who have gone through
[00:15:40] tough times and you do you lift them up and you rally behind them but there's a juxtaposition with
[00:15:46] the law and we may our hearts may go out say we understand that you wanted to retrieve a couple
[00:15:52] of your father's things that that might have been very sentimental to you and I'll just say what was
[00:15:58] in the the charging documents because I think her statement contradicting that and coming up
[00:16:04] with a whole new ignoring the facts as we understood them in the case is a whole
[00:16:08] separate dynamic but let's just for the moment talk through she says she wants to go and get
[00:16:14] some of his ashes and a flannel shirt and so I think your heart can go out for that sort of
[00:16:19] situation but when you understand that she is a lawmaker someone who votes on and creates the
[00:16:26] laws that we all have to abide by in the state and the law is pretty specific in this case
[00:16:31] in this case was charged as a first-degree burglary which is a felony charge and under
[00:16:38] first-degree burglary there's three things and you really only have to meet one of them
[00:16:43] and one of them is the person who lives in that residence who is a not an accomplice to the crime
[00:16:50] must be home at the time so if you're breaking into a home that's occupied
[00:16:54] and that person is not part of an accomplice to the crime they're a victim of the crime
[00:16:59] that qualifies you as a first-degree burglary and that's the one in this case that she met the
[00:17:04] requirement of and then it's was there an assault or was there a weapon used so if you broke into a
[00:17:09] house and you had a gun or whatever even if there was nobody home it would still qualify
[00:17:13] as a first-degree burglary or if there was an assault those two apparently she didn't meet that
[00:17:19] but she did meet the stepmother was home at the time interestingly enough
[00:17:24] she basically confessed to this crime to the police when she was arrested and
[00:17:32] the way I read the statute you don't have to have even stolen anything you just have to break
[00:17:36] into the home either with the intent to steal something which she admitted to or have stolen
[00:17:41] something which she did get caught with some property that apparently was not hers but interestingly
[00:17:46] enough if the person is home when you break in there's a victim in the house when you break in
[00:17:54] who is not an accomplice there is an automatic mandatory six-month statutory minimum mandatory
[00:18:01] minimum sentence so she has to serve a six and she basically confessed to this and all the
[00:18:07] evidence suggests that after she was grandized which is important right because you sometimes
[00:18:12] get into those are is it admissible is it not admissible but this is clearly and she also I don't
[00:18:17] know if she was a licensed attorney or if she just has a law degree but she has used the term attorney
[00:18:23] or has mentioned that in the past so you're not dealing with somebody who's unsophisticated in
[00:18:27] matters of the law which I think is going to be a problem for her as well so when you get into
[00:18:35] the dynamic of what's going on in the caucus they want to rally behind their family member
[00:18:40] and lift her up and support her but they also have to remember that they are a majority party
[00:18:45] in a legislative body in the state of Minnesota that has complete control of state government
[00:18:50] and they are responsible for making the laws so can they so flagrantly disregard one of their own
[00:18:56] members who has basically now confessed to a felony level charge and if you want to play
[00:19:02] devil's advocate here this crime if she has basically confessed to it and there is a mandatory
[00:19:08] minimum sentence she could be in if the timing is right she could be incarcerated during the next
[00:19:15] general election and not be eligible to vote in the general election but her colleagues have to
[00:19:21] now make a decision do we want to force the issue and have her voting here in the legislature
[00:19:28] when she may not be eligible under our state law to vote in the next general election
[00:19:32] because of what she's done so this is a complex dynamic within a caucus and whether or not
[00:19:38] they want to and you always have to worry about too how much of this spills over on two other members
[00:19:43] and that's why they've been so quiet right because not all the facts are probably out in this case
[00:19:48] there's probably more that we're going to learn we've already learned more in the last 24 hours
[00:19:53] so if they take a strong position and say no she has to be there to vote
[00:19:57] and of course they're gonna want her there to vote because they have some unfinished business
[00:20:00] right at the end of the second legislative session of the biennium and I'm sure there's
[00:20:04] been some stuff sitting on the back burner waiting to pass at the very end there always is
[00:20:08] and if they need if those things are controversial and they need her vote
[00:20:12] they're gonna push the envelope and try to convince the public that it's okay for her
[00:20:15] to stay there and vote the legislature until this thing has resolved and legally it probably is
[00:20:21] right morally and ethically I don't think that it is and I don't think that this passes
[00:20:26] one second of a smell test on moral and ethical issues for a lot of me.
[00:20:31] A brief and breaking news update the Minnesota Senate has convened a floor session today so
[00:20:37] they're gonna meet and they're meeting right now why we're recording this Jeff.
[00:20:42] They are meeting and that's interesting that they had as of about 15 minutes ago
[00:20:45] stated to the press that they were not meeting so that's no I think what they had said is
[00:20:49] they were going to meet but they were not going to pass bills okay okay and there was some
[00:20:54] information on social media that that the entire week was going to be canceled I don't think
[00:20:59] that's panned out to be accurate apparently and probably very smartly they're gonna take some time
[00:21:05] for all those dynamics I just talked about they're gonna take some time it looks like
[00:21:09] to make that decision whether we want to push the envelope and try to
[00:21:13] have her voting on legislation or whether we will ask her to resign or just not show up for
[00:21:19] until the end of session or something like that so it does appear and I think that's a
[00:21:23] smart decision on their part you can't shut down the state because of it but not bringing
[00:21:28] up bills and not trying to pass anything means she won't have to vote on anything
[00:21:32] and they've got some time then to make that decision.
[00:21:36] So I've got two things I wanted to cover here one thing you had mentioned that some
[00:21:43] in some instances people came out the other side of these things better or not better than
[00:21:49] you expected and you attributed that to basically how they handled it and I would assume some
[00:21:56] of their pre-existing relationships and with people does her statement yesterday make her
[00:22:04] does that make it harder for her to come out the other side of this?
[00:22:10] I think it does I think there's if I here I'll read my tweet from yesterday when I
[00:22:15] read her statement I said this statement is a case study on how to make a bad situation worse
[00:22:20] this is in direct conflict with the already confessed reported and known facts of this case
[00:22:27] this situation is only going to get worse for her until she takes full responsibility
[00:22:31] that one I think 21 000 views on that tweet it really it does make it worse she would have
[00:22:37] been better off to not if and if she's an attorney I can't believe she said anything
[00:22:42] to the police at the time she should have just shut her mouth and not said a word
[00:22:46] and then it maybe would have been okay to come out with this statement later and say hey there's
[00:22:50] some underlying dynamics here and I was really worried about my stepmom's safety maybe you could
[00:22:57] have got away with that but I think the facts of the case the fact that she was it just makes it
[00:23:02] very difficult we have breaking news the minnesota senate jupy caucus has filed an ethics complaint
[00:23:08] against dfl senator nicole michael woodbury in the wake of her arrest and charging in a
[00:23:12] burglar case early monday morning michael is not on the senate floor session that's from
[00:23:17] tom hauser at t hauser kstp an ethics complaint has been filed interesting yeah and I would have
[00:23:24] expected that today I think do we know who filed it does it say I don't know who filed at this point
[00:23:29] jeff you had more I wanted to say so as your audience should be painfully aware at this
[00:23:37] point I was also a minor elected official at one point and I had my own share of scandal related
[00:23:43] things going on at the municipal level what I we had a we had a situation with a police officer
[00:23:50] in crystal who made a number of bad choices and absolutely 100 percent deserve to be fired
[00:24:00] on his way out the door he aligned himself with some activist groups who and got them to buy into
[00:24:08] this false story that he was some kind of whistleblower and he was being he was being
[00:24:13] you know railroaded or he was being punished for whistleblowing and whatever and none of this
[00:24:17] information was public at the time I remember sitting on the outside this was actually even
[00:24:22] before I was elected sitting on the outside what made the what made that that case that
[00:24:28] what was going on in that case crystal clear was a letter to the editor from
[00:24:33] the head of the police union in crystal that basically said I'll paraphrase but it was basically
[00:24:40] like yeah we're not going to bat for this guy which was sending a message between the lines saying
[00:24:45] everybody needs to wait for the facts come out because if the union's not going to go to bat
[00:24:49] for this guy then everybody else should stand down and I tell that story because I was curious
[00:24:56] this is the statement from senate majority leader Aaron Murphy that went out yesterday
[00:25:02] the allegations against senator Mitchell are upsetting for me and for anyone who has gotten
[00:25:06] to know and work with her behavior alleged as far outside the character she is established in the
[00:25:11] senate and in her distinguished career in the military we believe in due process and senator
[00:25:15] Mitchell has the right to a full defense of her case in court in the coming days and weeks
[00:25:19] senator Mitchell must also have serious and difficult conversations with her colleagues
[00:25:24] constituents and family so we know what that statement said we know the black and
[00:25:29] white words of what it said but there was obviously some other messaging there always is
[00:25:33] right in a statement like that there's some other subtle messaging that's going on in there
[00:25:37] what do you make of that particular statement and is it harsher than you expected is it about
[00:25:43] what you expected what what do you think about that statement I think it's a pretty good
[00:25:48] statement I and let's jump in Aaron Murphy's brain at the moment she probably doesn't have
[00:25:54] all the facts she's being barraged with phone calls and media inquiries asking what's going to
[00:26:00] happen and I've been in that situation in the past where it just your whole world stops and this
[00:26:06] is the only thing going on and it's an emergency and you got to try to figure it out but you
[00:26:10] have to navigate through it not really knowing all the facts and if I remember right that
[00:26:15] statement came out prior to senator Mitchell even being released from jail and prior to her
[00:26:23] court if you're in Aaron Murphy's mind she needs to respond right she can't not say anything she needs to
[00:26:31] allow for any possibility in the future she needs to allow for the possibility in her
[00:26:38] words or in her statement that senator Mitchell will be forgiven and will continue and all of
[00:26:44] this is some misunderstanding or whatever and she needs to also allow for the possibility
[00:26:49] that this is a very serious thing and there was a huge lapse of judgment and the public's
[00:26:53] not going to forgive her and she's going to be convicted of this crime and she will be
[00:26:57] she'll have to resign from the senate or be expelled from the senate or whatever and
[00:27:01] that's a very obviously Aaron Murphy wants and under and understand too she's also in
[00:27:10] this dynamic where she's got a one seat majority and this is the one seat right that she can't
[00:27:15] afford to lose with three and a half weeks less left of a legislative session where they have some
[00:27:19] unfinished business yet to pass so she's got a legislative agenda she wants to get that stuff
[00:27:25] done and so she I'm sure she's trying to figure out how can we fix this enough so senator the
[00:27:34] senator can vote and we can finish out our legislative session and then she can if it's
[00:27:39] bad enough right off into the sunset or she can fight out her day in court to and let the
[00:27:43] court decide whether she's innocent or guilty and that's a tough thing to do in a statement
[00:27:48] especially when you don't have all the facts so I think I think a very well written statement
[00:27:52] you know the code the code that actually Michael it was the code that you brought up to me
[00:27:59] yesterday and then I took the idea and made it look like it was my own idea I went out with
[00:28:03] it publicly was that the wording around in the coming weeks and months was definitely
[00:28:10] designed to tamp down any expectations that there would be any immediate action on this or any
[00:28:16] action any action at least before the end of the legislative session and I think that was a great
[00:28:21] observation so I'll give you credit for it here. Thanks chef very nice of you. I'll give you
[00:28:27] credit for your own idea there. Should we do should we do a public acknowledgement of all
[00:28:31] the great ideas that you've posted to mine don't have that much time for the show but we
[00:28:35] can figure that out at a later point. I want to ask you both what is the calculus that's being made
[00:28:41] right now do you think in terms of what should be the punishment for her institutionally in relation
[00:28:46] to what she's been charged with and also what kind of calculation do you think is going on
[00:28:51] right now in terms of what can be done because of the math in the senate keeping her there it's
[00:28:58] 67 members but mathematically removing her from the equation makes the senate 3333 it's a
[00:29:06] statistical tie it's a dead heat how do you think the seriousness of the crime will factor in
[00:29:11] to what type of legislative punishment she has this session and will all of that be overlooked
[00:29:18] so she can vote and quickly get out and so the democrats can quickly get out
[00:29:22] and move past this. I think they're going to do everything they can to keep her there voting
[00:29:28] and they're going to talk about everybody's innocent until proven guilty all of those things
[00:29:32] is that realistic I don't think so I don't think so and my question for you is
[00:29:37] when is the last time we've had a sitting member legislature charged with a felony
[00:29:42] where there's basically an admission or a confession upon the arrest and the
[00:29:47] and the I just don't even know I can't think of another time that there's been a member
[00:29:51] sitting member charged with a felony the only and I don't have an encyclopedia
[00:29:56] knowledge of this but the only criminal the only criminal complaints that I am aware of
[00:30:03] in the legislature in the past decade at least and then go back even a little bit further are
[00:30:09] all generally alcohol related in some way and usually involving a vehicle yeah this type of
[00:30:18] like burglary is a new one right we've had other we've had other types of scandals that
[00:30:24] were non-criminal that are whatever but they're all fit in a neat sort of what you're used to seeing
[00:30:30] burglary and then again as you mentioned and then admitting the burglary is a new one and you
[00:30:35] generally don't see you generally don't see this serious of a crime I guess I would say not that
[00:30:40] the other crimes are not serious I have a I've got a whole soapbox I could get up on about
[00:30:44] vehicular crimes but that's not for this day but this is a fairly unique case as far as I
[00:30:53] can recall I'm gonna say to both of you I'm watching the floor session right now I believe
[00:30:59] a roll call vote was just requested by senator Lucero to expel
[00:31:06] Mitchell from the Senate I apologize I'm this is and I apologize if I'm inaccurate in what I'm
[00:31:13] in what I'm saying right now I'm trying to record this podcast while keeping an eye on
[00:31:17] the breaking news so I do believe if I read the transcript correctly senator Lucero just stood up
[00:31:23] and under motions and resolutions offered a motion to expel the member senator nick friends
[00:31:29] dfl of making I think he's the assistive majority leader is speaking right now
[00:31:33] talking about process and other types of things that is as Ron Burgundy would say
[00:31:38] an escalation yeah and escalate it quickly yeah and the and the Republicans are going to
[00:31:44] right just so much as it's important that Democrats hold this vote and have this vote
[00:31:48] through the end of session it's just as advantageous for the Republicans to make sure she can't vote
[00:31:54] and also to keep this story alive and make sure that the public realizes the severity of the
[00:31:59] charges here and the the details of the case so this is obviously a step in that a cog in
[00:32:05] that wheel to try to keep this story going and make sure that people understand I don't
[00:32:10] necessarily think they're wrong I don't think she can serve in the legislature we talked about
[00:32:14] whether there's been a felony level charge of this sort of nature with a sitting legislator I don't
[00:32:19] think there has been you have one from the 80s or something didn't you or like the senator fishbark
[00:32:27] was elected in a special election after the resignation of senator fishbark now congresswoman
[00:32:33] fishbark from the seventh congressional district conforming lieutenant governor
[00:32:36] that she was elected in a special election involving senator jill birkstrom he but he
[00:32:40] had been charged and was can I think he pleaded guilty and that's when the ethics process continued
[00:32:45] was that a theft situation as well that was a set situation and yes and I think what's and I think
[00:32:51] all I know the mr. Speaker members of the legislature love custom they love tradition
[00:32:57] they love to go through history books and examine stuff I think it's fair to say
[00:33:01] based on just all of our kind of political knowledge and experience I think what's making
[00:33:05] this so difficult is first of all you have the criminal charge and you have the visuals
[00:33:10] and what you can read and what you know was sworn was provided to a statement to the court
[00:33:15] under perjury of law and what we know and what she said and it's pretty black and white yeah in terms
[00:33:20] of what she's charged with based on what she said I think the curveball escalation and
[00:33:26] what gas this to take words from Jeff is the statement yesterday yeah and I think the
[00:33:31] statement is what's really gas this situation and there's a part of me that thinks that the hope was
[00:33:38] that statement that was a political statement not a legal statement that was not done anything in
[00:33:43] terms of the legal process it was meant from a political standpoint and again this is a citizen
[00:33:49] legislature legislators are allowed to have jobs and work outside the legislature it's not
[00:33:55] considered full-time which that means sometimes is they're out doing real life things and they're
[00:33:59] real human beings and I think everyone can understand and you've listed some experiences
[00:34:04] that you had with members in a variety of ways but I do think what the challenge here is it's
[00:34:09] the criminal charges it's what her lawyer has been saying what she did which is basically an
[00:34:14] admission and then her public statement it's a problem right now and that's where I think
[00:34:19] the situation escalated very quickly and I think that the statement does create a problem
[00:34:25] for her in your comment that this statement was a political statement I agree with that I think it
[00:34:29] was but there's no way that statement doesn't become part of the court case and and the evidence
[00:34:35] and that doesn't get if there's a trial on this that statement is admissible I think the only
[00:34:40] place that a political speech is not admissible in a courtroom is if you give it on the House
[00:34:44] or Senate floor and we have a constitutional protection that says you cannot be questioned
[00:34:48] in any other place for a speech that you give during a House or Senate session
[00:34:56] but that's a public statement she made a public statement and that will be admissible in court
[00:35:02] and she's going to have to try to justify the contradicting facts of the statement and what she
[00:35:08] said to the police when she was arrested. In your guys' experience based on what we know
[00:35:13] now including what she was charged with the statements from her lawyer and her public statement
[00:35:18] do both of you agree that she should resign immediately from the legislature?
[00:35:24] I do. I think I have a lower bar than to reach that for the higher bar
[00:35:35] personally my personal opinion is a little bit more hardcore on the topic than I think maybe the
[00:35:40] general consensus but so I absolutely do. And partisanship is in factoring in your answer you're
[00:35:47] not saying that just because she's a Democrat? No but I do want to point out something that
[00:35:54] I saw an interesting exchange last night between Speaker Dowdton former what was he he was the
[00:36:01] majority leader wasn't he Ryan Winkler it's another guy who had some some experience leading
[00:36:07] a caucus and living through these kind of things and had a couple of high profile scandals of his own
[00:36:12] that were not handled all that well in my opinion but that's neither here nor there.
[00:36:17] Two things can be true at the same time and they often are the fact that this is politically
[00:36:22] advantageous to Republicans is can exist on the same plane as the fact that this is an
[00:36:28] untenable position for a legislator to be in and whether every single person would get to
[00:36:34] the exact same place if the Rs and the Ds were flipped I don't know but personally I can speak
[00:36:38] for myself in that absolutely if this was any Republican senator no you can't be caught
[00:36:45] in the cat burglar suit and then come back and vote on the Senate floor the next day that's just
[00:36:50] that's that there has to be a line somewhere right. I will add some commentary to my answer
[00:36:56] to your question Michael which is do I think she should resign and just to demonstrate that I'm
[00:37:01] consistent I asked one of when I was speaker of the house I asked one of my own members to
[00:37:05] resign for less than this and he did resign and so you leadership is not an easy thing
[00:37:12] and I always think that the true test of a leader is are you willing it's the old kind
[00:37:16] of definition of integrity are you willing to do something even if it hurts if it's the
[00:37:21] right thing even if it hurts you politically and I think that's not only a great definition
[00:37:27] for integrity it's also a good definition for someone who is a good leader.
[00:37:34] Can I want to take this a slightly different angle but it's still related
[00:37:38] speak or doubt you had that's no secret you had some members in your own caucus who are not your
[00:37:47] biggest fan right so it's a it's a majority vote situation to be elected you're not always going
[00:37:53] to be everyone's first choice Erin Murphy isn't exactly the same spot she had a very narrow election
[00:37:59] she's leading over divided caucus people were at least a large portion of her caucus was
[00:38:05] not happy or at a minimum skeptical of her ability to lead the caucus in the first place
[00:38:11] how does that particular dynamic do you believe in a time of crisis call it right
[00:38:18] is it more likely the caucus rallies around the leader and supports where they're going or is
[00:38:25] it more likely that the knives come out and people are going to try and make their play
[00:38:29] I think so let me go back and respond to part of your question where Erin Murphy was just
[00:38:35] elected she ran the previous time as well she was beat I it's my understanding that she has won
[00:38:42] with just 50% or just a little bit more than that that it's been close elections
[00:38:46] every time and when she lost I think she only lost by one vote in the caucus at least that's what I hear
[00:38:51] these sort of caucus elections are always supposed to be secret they usually never are
[00:38:55] I will say that my caucus is the only one of the four to my knowledge that has a threshold
[00:39:02] higher than 50% to elect the leader and our caucus has for years since way before my time
[00:39:08] had a rule similar to a party endorsement where you have to achieve a 60% vote of
[00:39:12] the caucus to get elected so I never felt like my yes I always had detractors and I always had people
[00:39:20] who were against me I never felt like there was a critical mass there or my leadership was in question
[00:39:26] to get to the heart of your question what happens in this situation do the knives come out
[00:39:31] if I showed up with sunshine ice cream cones chocolate chip cookies and puppies to a caucus
[00:39:37] meeting the knives would have been out from those handful of people that hated everything
[00:39:41] I did even when I was you know the did the best thing in the world they still hated it so
[00:39:50] to the heart of your question this sort of a situation just opens up an opportunity for people to
[00:39:57] with a put your leadership skills under under a magnifying glass or a microscope and analyze every
[00:40:03] little detail of what you have done and whether you've done it correctly and these can be a real
[00:40:08] test right getting through these is not easy and it's not anything that Erin Murphy asked for or
[00:40:13] wanted but she's going to have to navigate this and I think her first statement that she put out
[00:40:20] of course there's a lot going on behind closed doors that we don't know and we don't see
[00:40:24] but the first statement that she put out publicly I think was 100 spot on I think it
[00:40:29] was very good was what she needed to do I still don't think she's going to be able to
[00:40:34] keep senator Mitchell in the senate voting through the end of session I think it's going to be
[00:40:40] too controversial I don't think it's the right thing to do and that puts the senate into a tied
[00:40:44] situation and I don't know if Erin Murphy won by one vote maybe there's a bigger dynamic going on
[00:40:51] here that maybe that one vote was one vote for Erin Murphy or it was one vote against Erin
[00:40:56] Murphy and Erin Murphy probably knows that right now all of a sudden you've got that dynamic
[00:41:01] not just can we pass legislation but is the leadership of the caucus in jeopardy and that
[00:41:07] particular caucus has changed leaders six or seven times in the last one and I think we have examples
[00:41:15] to where people did not handle things well internally and that was ultimately their downfall
[00:41:21] within the caucus where the former senator from Woodbury actually and some irony here is no
[00:41:28] longer the leader of that caucus for some decisions that were made she was the leader that
[00:41:34] didn't sit well with the caucus so I think that these do have real-world consequences.
[00:41:39] The senator Lucero is now moves the senate be compelled to take up the senate ethics
[00:41:45] complaint immediately he has just made a motion to force the rules committee to immediately
[00:41:50] consider the ethics complaint and then weigh expulsion of DFL senator Nicole Mitchell and
[00:41:56] that may be a second motion or if that was part of the first but the press has reported it
[00:42:01] press reported the way I did live on this podcast but then they'd also follow up so maybe one motion
[00:42:06] or two motions but that's currently what the senate is debating right now and I think that's
[00:42:09] interesting because as I understand it there's a 30-day window and so the senate republicans
[00:42:15] filed an ethics complaint today it does not have to be heard I think during it could be heard in
[00:42:20] the last couple days of the legislative session and that gets to the math problem that they have
[00:42:26] which is that do that quote-unquote due process allows her to vote and be the deciding vote
[00:42:33] and for the next coming weeks so the senate is allowing for remote voting do you see a scenario
[00:42:38] by which if she does stay and she does vote is it more realistic to you that she votes in
[00:42:44] the chamber or in the floor of the Minnesota Senate or does she take advantage of the
[00:42:49] remote option that the senate currently has I think we have yet to see or yet to see signs of
[00:42:56] what democrats intend to do in the senate and that could be for a couple of reasons number one it could
[00:43:01] be because they're waiting for the pressure to the heat to cool off here and for the pressure
[00:43:06] to release and maybe they can roll her out next week voting or it could be that they don't
[00:43:11] know yet and they're still trying to figure this out internally how can we navigate this
[00:43:16] and is there a way to preserve her as a member of the senate where she's allowed to vote or is this
[00:43:20] going to be too much and is this going to blow back on us if we try to do that and is it going to hurt
[00:43:24] us in the election and so all of those are probably being considered behind closed doors
[00:43:30] and and as people are watching this from home wondering those are things to watch for what
[00:43:35] are the signs that the senate democrats are going to try to keep her I think right now
[00:43:40] they're preserving their options but I haven't seen any strong movements that they intend to
[00:43:45] have her voting and and my guess is that leads me to believe that they probably haven't made that
[00:43:51] decision themselves and what the republicans are doing here is they're trying to get democrats on
[00:43:56] record with votes or pressing the issue of course this is creating news stories and it's keeping
[00:44:03] this fire hot and then the republicans job right now is to keep this fire as hot as possible
[00:44:09] as you both know because you followed michael worked in the legislature some years ago and
[00:44:13] jeff you followed it for years this this it could unfold in many different ways and it'll be interesting
[00:44:20] to see how how they all react to this and there's a lot of there's going to be a lot of demand to try
[00:44:26] to keep her voting I'm sure but what both of you because you've been involved in this is
[00:44:30] that when you have the majority there's an incredible amount of power and when you're
[00:44:34] in the minority you have almost no power and so you're when you're in the minority your
[00:44:40] options to try to do something like this are pretty limited and that's also why this dynamic
[00:44:46] of the one seat majority and she is the one seat with three and a half weeks left in session
[00:44:51] means that this is a very high stakes game on both sides so I just want to I'm going to put
[00:44:58] this out there rep pet garofalo yesterday said that the path forward should be
[00:45:06] that we only take up votes on things that have bipartisan agreement and that we let
[00:45:11] senator michael deal with her family situation what are the chances of the garofalo plan going into
[00:45:18] effect you mentioned my little back and forth with with representative winkler former majority
[00:45:24] leader democrat majority leader in the house last night and I jumped in on his comments
[00:45:28] because he said this is a GOP power grab and something about they're they're doing this to
[00:45:35] get revenge for their their leader trump is what he was applying or implying and I jumped in and
[00:45:41] said that's not exactly true because if we won't gain republicans won't gain any power
[00:45:47] if she is expelled because the majority in the chamber won't flip the chamber will just be
[00:45:53] tied and and as I think about what the public might think would be a really great byproduct of this
[00:45:59] whole thing is that in the legislature democrats and republicans would be forced to work with each
[00:46:05] other nobody would have a majority in the senate so what pac rafalo is saying would happen and I
[00:46:11] actually think the public if you explained it to the public they would say we're not against
[00:46:16] that I what a great deal to have an even number of republicans and democrats in the
[00:46:21] chamber and having to work to actually having to work together to land the plane smoothly here at
[00:46:26] the end of session so I think that would be fantastic I just I have I have ultimate faith in
[00:46:32] the legislature to disappoint me so I think I find that very unlikely but it is an option
[00:46:39] I wanted to cover Michael to go back to your question about remote voting in particular
[00:46:44] if democrats try to allow senator mitchell to vote but do not force her to come to
[00:46:49] the floor and let her sit at home or in a jail cell somewhere and vote I think republicans should
[00:46:56] use every single option in the arsenal to stop that from happening because that is the worst of all
[00:47:02] situations is to allow her to just hide out not have to face the press not have to answer
[00:47:07] questions but still get to vote on legislation that's the absolute worst case scenario in my
[00:47:12] opinion and that's where I think you open up all tools in the toolbox if I don't think
[00:47:18] she should be allowed back on the floor to vote but if she is she needs to be on the floor and she
[00:47:22] needs to be in that environment and she needs to look everybody in the eye and she needs to be able
[00:47:27] to get hounded by the press and answer those questions and all of those things she can't
[00:47:31] just log in from home and be like and just push the green button that's that's something
[00:47:36] that should be objected to in the highest degree in my opinion so a couple of things on
[00:47:42] that dynamic number one part of me was saying boy if she if they really intend to have her
[00:47:48] vote they should just rip the band-aid off and have her there tomorrow meaning today she should
[00:47:52] just show up face the press just rip the band-aid off and get it over with I that was difficult to
[00:47:58] do and the interesting thing is by ripping the band-aid off you made it a one day story now
[00:48:06] you've got potentially multiple days because the day she comes back to the legislature
[00:48:09] is another story and you get more of these these shenanigans but interestingly enough
[00:48:15] on your question about the senate being allowed to vote remotely they are and it's my understanding
[00:48:21] that the rules committee in the senate last week adopted or recommended a new policy on
[00:48:27] remote voting they debated it and passed it out of the rules committee last week it was supposed
[00:48:32] to come to the floor this week which would have ended remote voting except for and I don't know
[00:48:38] all of the details but I it's my understanding except for like a military service type situation
[00:48:43] or maybe a severe illness I'm not sure if there was even a I'm not sure if there was even exception
[00:48:48] for illness but they were going to get rid of the ability for remote voting essentially this week
[00:48:54] and then this happened right so now what do democrats do and could Mitchell be the deciding
[00:49:01] vote on this new policy of whether remote voting is allowed or not and she conceivably could
[00:49:08] cast that vote remotely it's just boy that would be a mess right I mean and people that
[00:49:13] says open up more opportunity for a public to criticize and say see you're trying to pull
[00:49:18] the wool over the public size here and it just gives them more opportunity and to air their case
[00:49:28] I just want to ask my last question here I'm because this is something that always comes up
[00:49:33] in these types of situations do republicans risk overplaying their hand and snatching defeat from
[00:49:42] the jaws of victory I think that's a possibility in some cases I don't think it's a possibility in
[00:49:50] this case I think that the the details the facts of this case the charge that she was charged with
[00:49:57] the fact that it's a felony level charge the pure just outrageousness of this this the facts
[00:50:02] and details of this case I think I don't think the republicans can overplay their hand on this one
[00:50:08] I really don't I think the danger in this is for the democrats I think they have to try to navigate
[00:50:13] this very carefully that's not going to be an easy job because this is a obviously a
[00:50:19] a pretty big deal and it's not just a big deal legally it is this kind of outrageous case
[00:50:26] that is going to make for unbelievable TV news fodder right where people are going to be
[00:50:31] like are you kidding me a senator crawled through that dress like at burglar at all black and crawled
[00:50:36] through that window it just it's so outrageous and so exaggerated and those are the real facts of the
[00:50:44] case the fact that she drove up there at left her home in woodbury at one o'clock in the morning
[00:50:49] got up there and was arrested at 4 30 in the morning crawling through this little window and
[00:50:54] and then the stuff that she said and it's just this is not going to go away for the democrats
[00:51:00] and as much as republicans believe that the media is biased and that the media covers for democrats
[00:51:06] and I think there's real liberal bias in the media I think it's a real thing on this one
[00:51:11] the thing that is more important than conservative or or liberal bias in the media is selling
[00:51:17] they are businesses and I used to have a communications director that that always
[00:51:21] would remind me that that news outlets are not in the business of telling the truth
[00:51:27] they're in the business of selling ad time and this is one of those kind of fanciful stories
[00:51:33] that this thing will make national news if it hasn't already or yeah and it has it well
[00:51:39] and it will continue to do that and and if you try to cover it up or hide it or lie about
[00:51:45] it or change the facts it'll just bring it all up again and I just it just won't go away
[00:51:50] because it's so outrageous I want to update you both before we leave here in a few minutes
[00:51:55] with the status of the debate as I'm watching it it appears again that there is still debating this
[00:51:59] resolution which would force require the ethics committee to take this up immediately it's breaking
[00:52:05] along these lines the republicans are talking about you know the the closeness of the vote
[00:52:10] where we're at 3433 and talking about there's some major bills coming through there's it will
[00:52:15] there will be a cloud of doubt if this senator midgel is allowed to vote on legislation in
[00:52:20] this way and that process the democrats are right now talking about allowing there to be due process
[00:52:26] they want the committee to get their 30 days senator lats just articulated that if i'm reading the
[00:52:32] transcript correctly as it's being written that this was she wasn't acting in this capacity as
[00:52:36] a senator when she did this there's no allegation there's no allegation that she was on official
[00:52:41] senate duty she didn't do this in her capacity as a senator the dupe she did have her senate
[00:52:46] id card in her backpack at the time so i'm not sure that we have that which may have allowed her to
[00:52:51] vote from the basement had she needed wow she had a laptop too right she could have she could
[00:52:56] have remote voted right there from in the dark with her flashlight and everything now interestingly
[00:53:02] in the dynamics could she actually vote on this question now remember that a a motion that's
[00:53:09] made like this hey i i move that the rules committee immediately take this up and report
[00:53:16] back so that we can vote on expulsion that fails on an even vote right on a tide vote so really
[00:53:23] and i'm just thinking out loud here but the way my brain thinks is you needed to word it
[00:53:27] the opposite way where you're i want to give the rules committee permission to take more time
[00:53:32] or something and then that fails or whatever that is it the problem is that this can only be
[00:53:38] really designed to to create a news story because if they do allow a vote and it goes down on party
[00:53:44] lines on a tide vote it still fails so correct and the bureaucratic and on the republicans i think
[00:53:50] they're making a good point which is we have a member here and what apparently the rules committee
[00:53:55] in all the work that the minnesota senate has done there's apparently not a process to deal with
[00:54:00] an ethics complaint that happens within the last 30 days of a legislative session so in theory
[00:54:05] not in this example the last week of a legislative session a member could be charged with first
[00:54:10] degree murder and they would still be allowed to vote because the f because we have to allow them
[00:54:16] to be to have due process and the ethics committee can't hear that complaint it's so rough they
[00:54:21] have to have that 30 day window what's happening here is a bureaucratic kind of snafu which is
[00:54:26] the democrats want to give senator michael due process and allow the ethics committee
[00:54:32] to investigate as they normally would do the problem is that 30 day window
[00:54:36] is longer than the legislative session and so if she is allowed to navigate and vote
[00:54:42] during an up during the remaining weeks of the legislative session
[00:54:47] she will be the deciding in many instances she may be the deciding vote and the problem that
[00:54:52] creates is a scenario that i would like to close with is what happens if she votes if there's
[00:54:57] 34 33 votes the rest of the legislative session and then the week after the sessions over with
[00:55:03] then she resigns what happens then that's then there's that's a possibility i think is going to
[00:55:09] happen here is that i think they're gonna try yeah that's a good ability that's the
[00:55:14] scenario that unfolds is that they're gonna try to they're gonna my guess is they're
[00:55:18] gonna try to keep her voting or have her vote during the legislative session and keep
[00:55:23] going back to everybody in the is innocent until proven guilty which i believe in that
[00:55:28] concept however uh i do believe that legislators have to be because we are the ones who create
[00:55:33] the laws and make the laws and vote on the laws we have to be held to a higher standard and
[00:55:37] there is an ethical and moral uh conversation that needs to happen in the legislature
[00:55:42] to resolve this i don't think the public is going to be okay with her voting
[00:55:47] through the rest of the legislative session and i think it calls into question
[00:55:50] than anything that's passed and i think that's a black eye for the democrats especially
[00:55:54] in my mind what i think the democrats need going into the next election cycle is a
[00:55:59] an amendment a constitutional amendment on abortion that they could put on the ballot
[00:56:04] which would then keep the abortion issue that won them the last election right there's a lot
[00:56:08] of people that thought that i would including myself and including melissa hortman that
[00:56:12] thought that i would be the speaker of the house right now if it went for scott jensen's
[00:56:16] comments on abortion right and that issue worked well for democrats in the last election
[00:56:21] and it's the one thing that could really help them in the next election if they can keep that alive
[00:56:26] if they don't have her vote in the senate they cannot put that question on the ballot
[00:56:30] and now all of a sudden maybe they can't keep that issue alive and maybe they can't win a
[00:56:35] majority in the house so there's high stakes on what's going to happen between now and the end
[00:56:39] of session and if they do super partisan things like that and super divisive things like
[00:56:43] that and they use a vote of somebody who's been charged with a felony that comes with a mandatory
[00:56:50] minimum incarceration and they have that person voting on the house floor for purely political
[00:56:55] reasons and they don't deal with the moral and ethical problems involved in this question i think
[00:57:00] it is a huge black eye for democrats and it could swing the election all on its own
[00:57:04] just doing that so i think there's you asked if republicans can overreach and overplay
[00:57:08] their hand they absolutely i don't think they can on this one but democrats absolutely can
[00:57:13] overplay their hand and i sure hope they don't but they may well my last statement will be this
[00:57:19] and then i'll leave it to you gentlemen to close there is a if i'm looking at the calendar correctly
[00:57:23] the following scenario could happen an ethics complaint filed today they could give now 30 days
[00:57:29] or 29 days she could also cast votes and resign before the ethics committee meets and would
[00:57:35] still be within the procedures and windows so there is an opportunity here for senator michael
[00:57:39] to vote be the 34th vote the remaining time of the legislative session have there not be one legislative
[00:57:45] ethics committee hearing on her and it still fits within the timeline so she could get out of this
[00:57:51] and still vote then resign and not face any punishment by the ethics committee i think
[00:57:56] that's true i don't i think the ethics committee in the senate has a little more of a record
[00:58:00] of doing things than the ethics committee in the house but i'm not as familiar i assume
[00:58:05] the ethics committee in the senate is equally divided as it is and i know it is in the house
[00:58:09] because i appointed when i was speaker i pointed those members i don't think there's a scenario
[00:58:13] where the ethics committee actually does any sort of punishment or actually really in any
[00:58:18] meaningful way here is this if the ethics committee is moving in that direction or if
[00:58:22] there's a a groundswell of public push to for them to move in that direction she will feel
[00:58:27] that pressure and she will resign before that happens i think there's a likely scenario where
[00:58:32] they they have her vote or try to have her vote or maybe she doesn't vote or maybe only votes a
[00:58:37] little bit between now and the end of session she gets into the remember that her seat is not up
[00:58:43] for election until 2026 the senate seats are not up for election this cycle unless there's a
[00:58:50] special election or opening like this and she gets into a court uh the court case on this
[00:58:57] pleads it down to a lesser charge gets a slap on the hand and does a an apology to the public
[00:59:05] and she does not resign and the ethics committee does not have the votes or does not overturn
[00:59:09] or feel enough pressure to throw her out and she actually continues to serve and finish
[00:59:13] without her term that i think that's a likely scenario too i just want to bring to everyone's
[00:59:19] attention that the lucera motion is currently being voted on i'll give you guys one guess as
[00:59:24] to what the vote total is right now my guess is it's going to be 3333
[00:59:29] jeff i don't know that everybody's there today is everybody else there it's going to tie jeff it's
[00:59:34] losing answer jeff are you were in the senate would you have missed today i don't know if i was
[00:59:39] in the senate well a lot of things went wrong if i was in the senate yeah so 3333 yes on a
[00:59:45] roll on a vote of 3333 the motion does not prevail i'm your speaker as you pointed out a tie
[00:59:51] it doesn't pass and so i've been doing this for a while michael yeah and so let's welcome everyone
[00:59:56] get used to the 3333 number because we're going to be hearing a lot gentlemen
[01:00:00] i can't thank you enough for doing this mr speaker it was so good to be available and
[01:00:04] accessible and come on today i want to be respectful of your time i hope you consider coming back
[01:00:08] and again and we'll make sure our listeners follow you on social media on x at k doubt
[01:00:14] thank you both for having me on and it was really great to catch up with you both and
[01:00:18] thanks yeah it was a great conversation and jeff you're available at jpculp thank you both for
[01:00:23] being here i really appreciate it jeff you and i just spoke with former house speaker kurt doubt
[01:00:32] in a disappointing development the moment we stopped recording a speaker doubt said some
[01:00:37] very nice things about us which we i can't say on air but he said some nice things and my reaction
[01:00:41] was to say why didn't you say that when we were recording but that was actually really funny
[01:00:46] he is let me just say i've known speaker doubt long before he was speaker and i was sad to see him going
[01:00:53] there's a number of legislate number of legislators on the republican side who are stepping away
[01:00:57] and speaker doubt is absolutely one of the good ones i've always enjoyed his company he's been so
[01:01:02] kind he's been such a and he's a good thoughtful republican and i really hope that he along with
[01:01:09] representative pat garafalo representative annu brindley legislators who have left this year
[01:01:14] this isn't the last that we've heard of them and i hope there's an opportunity for them to serve
[01:01:19] in other capacities because i think they're great for the republican team
[01:01:23] yeah i agree it was that was a great conversation i was it was talk about somebody who knows the
[01:01:28] dynamics of what's going on and has lived it that was it was a fantastic it was a good
[01:01:34] conversation with him yes and a couple points i'd say i don't i think his perspective is very
[01:01:39] fair and balanced i think he's offering good institutional perspective but also the fact
[01:01:43] that he's called for members to resign of his own party when he was in a leadership position
[01:01:48] i thought was really insightful commentary because one thing i will point out and i'd like to ask you
[01:01:53] this this question the level of partisan that republicans get accused of participating
[01:01:58] versus what the democrats do on a regular basis is night and day and so i think that the activity
[01:02:05] today of the the senate republicans in terms of what they've done on the floor
[01:02:11] what they've released via press statements has been completely and utterly proportional i do
[01:02:17] i was very interested in your question about republicans overplaying their hand because
[01:02:23] listening to the speaker delt's answer he said it's based on the fact it's going to be
[01:02:29] difficult for republicans to overplay their hand but he did say that democrats democrats might be
[01:02:34] could overplay theirs and so i think that's the situation that we're in right now there's as
[01:02:39] i'm answering this question or i'm offering this commentary i am listening to the i'm observing
[01:02:44] the floor of the senate and they're still having some discussions senator erin murphy the majority
[01:02:48] leader is addressing some of a minority leader mark john senator mark johnson's comments about how
[01:02:53] the senate's going to proceed and other things like that and so this is going to be evolving story
[01:02:59] yes and it'll be in two speaker delt's comments earlier the democrats have a vested interest
[01:03:06] in making this story go away and republicans have a vested interested making this continue
[01:03:12] to be a story this is not a story that the that the general public a lot of times this inside
[01:03:17] baseball stuff nobody really cares about but the facts of this case are so salacious and senator
[01:03:24] michael's pushback so ridiculous and her attorney's statements like so over-the-top ridiculous
[01:03:30] and not acquitting her in any way not helping her case i think means that the calculus here is a
[01:03:37] little bit different because republicans want this to continue to be a story and democrats
[01:03:41] want to make it go away the quickest way to make it go away is to make her resign but that goes in
[01:03:46] conflict against their other their other interest which is to have her present to vote on some
[01:03:52] of these bills so they are in a tough spot right now where they want to make this story go
[01:03:57] away but at the same time they need her to pass these bills it will be it'll be an interesting
[01:04:03] couple of days to see how this plays out and a couple of weeks actually because of this will
[01:04:07] continue to be a story but i do think that republicans in minnesota have a long history of
[01:04:14] snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and i agree with with doubt on this particular matter
[01:04:21] that they i don't know that you can overplay your head this needs to be a problem and again
[01:04:27] just because it's politically advantageous doesn't make it also not the right thing to do
[01:04:32] those two things can be the can be they can exist simultaneously right and so you have
[01:04:38] a situation here where the republican side which is no you can't go break into somebody's
[01:04:44] house in the middle of the night and try and steal stuff no matter how mad you are at them
[01:04:50] that is the moral and that is the ethical position to have so you're not on a
[01:04:55] republicans should feel very comfortable on this particular topic sure it's politically advantageous
[01:05:00] who cares that that's irrelevant to the fact that it's also the right thing to do so again two
[01:05:06] things can be true at the same time and often are true at the same time and democrats are the
[01:05:12] ones who are have to be in the position of defending somebody who admitted to the police
[01:05:17] that they committed burglary and then went on facebook and lied about it a few hours later
[01:05:22] after they got out of jail the issue how this proceeds is what is so i think the senate republicans
[01:05:31] threw a mark down today i think that they came into the session the floor session today
[01:05:35] with a very aggressive posture but proportional just i think it was well within the bounds
[01:05:42] of what is reasonable and it was interesting again to get a speaker delt's perspective on
[01:05:47] or in response to your question about overplaying their end here becomes the issue
[01:05:51] the issue becomes will they continue it because this issue isn't going away and it's a statement
[01:05:56] that i made before the pressure they have to continue this message has to be stronger than
[01:06:02] the message to stop it and so the question will be is who caves first because right now they're
[01:06:09] in a statistical dead heat they're statistically died 33 33 but the question is at what point do
[01:06:16] they bring michael back they do have the ability to bring the 34th vote in and so the dynamic
[01:06:22] is going to be is what will who's going to break first because again the senate democrats could
[01:06:27] bring in 34 votes ignore the noise and just plow through but then the job of the republicans
[01:06:32] is to make them make it be clear that they're not going to go along with this and technically
[01:06:38] speaking with 34 33 votes the democrats out of the majority there's not a need for republican
[01:06:43] anything except bonding except some other legislation and so there's some gamesmanship
[01:06:48] to be done but the senate republicans have staked out a very strong claim today and the only
[01:06:53] question i think that you and i will have i think is a reasonable question says can they
[01:06:58] keep this pace up because this is a message for today but this is the start of a long battle
[01:07:04] that's going to be happening here over this issue and if republicans stick to their guns
[01:07:09] and focus on what's happening during this legislative session again just talking from a partisan
[01:07:13] perspective they can advance their agenda to your point about what and reading what representative
[01:07:19] garofalo said that would be the great compromise in all this is if republicans
[01:07:23] could work together with democrats in a bipartisan way to mess to get through the
[01:07:28] legislative session and work on bills of common interest that is one possible outcome
[01:07:33] i just don't know if we're there yet
[01:07:37] yes and i i think that will remain to be seen we really it's going to be an interesting
[01:07:44] it'll be interesting to watch yes and i do want to compliment one thing you were the first
[01:07:48] person on social media to break the the possibility that the burglary occurred at
[01:07:54] a home that was tied to to the family and so that was a good scoop that you had
[01:07:57] and people should continue to follow you at jp col for your biting analysis your fact
[01:08:03] based retorts and rock star great food takes great food takes and rock star citizen journalism
[01:08:11] thank you i appreciate that yes follow me at jp club follow michael at broad carb although
[01:08:17] based on your following your follower numbers everyone follows you already anyway we'll see
[01:08:22] there's always room for improvement jeff thank you so much for being uh so flexible today
[01:08:26] and stepping in and doing this this is going to be a great episode i'll get a release
[01:08:30] soon and we'll talk soon sir i love to have breaking news while we're on the air i wish we
[01:08:35] could do a live show i wish we could do this five days a week let's work toward that huh
[01:08:39] yeah let's work toward that let's see too all right bye
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