A Break Down with Pat Garofalo and the Craig-Flanagan Ad War

[00:00:11] Welcome to The Break Down with Brodkorb and Becky, a weekly podcast that breaks down politics, policy, and current affairs. I'm Becky Scherer. And I'm Michael Brodkorb. We are going to start this week with a brief update just ahead of the one-year anniversary of the assassination of Speaker Melissa Hortman. Then we will shift things a bit this week with our returning guest, former State Representative Pat Garofalo. Garofalo served in the Minnesota House from 2005 to 2024 and is the newest contributing columnist for the Star Tribunal.

[00:00:39] His first piece is out this week titled, Minnesota, I Love You, But You've Gone Astray. With Garofalo, we will break down his article of where Minnesota went wrong and discuss when and if it can come back from things. Then we will get into some dramas surrounding the U.S. Senate race for the Democrat candidates this time. We'll break down how a tweet from Tom Emmer made an impact, how both campaigns have responded, and what is actually going down in the battle on the left. Thank you for joining us and enjoy the show.

[00:01:05] So, Michael, crazy to think about how quickly a year goes, but this Sunday marks the one-year anniversary of the assassination, the tragic assassination of Speaker Melissa Hortman, who was killed in the middle of the night at her home on June 14, 2025. Just this week, during a hearing on Thursday, Vance Bolter changed his plea to guilty in the murder of Melissa and Mark Kortman and their dog.

[00:01:31] It was reported that a plea deal is underway that would allow Bolter to avoid the death penalty, and a report that I read said he's expected to be sentenced to two consecutive life sentences, followed by 40 years in federal prison. I think we'll chat about this a little bit more next week and get into some of the tributes we're seeing and some of the memories being shared.

[00:01:54] But certainly, wild that it has been a year, and we chat about this a little bit in our interview coming up here, but looking forward to hearing some more of those stories from her friends and loved ones as we get to that one-year anniversary.

[00:02:08] I appreciate you making a mention of this, and my thoughts or prayers are with the family of Speaker Hortman and her husband, and along with the Hoffmans, and everyone who was touched and harmed by what occurred in Minnesota last year. And as you said, Becky, we'll discuss it more next week as we go through a week of tributes and other discussions.

[00:02:33] We are excited to welcome former Representative Pat Garofalo back to the podcast. Fun fact, we had you on last on episode 57, just a little over two years ago. We are now, this is episode 157, so just a fun fact of how it all works out. And you'll have to let us know at the end if we've improved any or are failing miserably after two-ish more years of doing this.

[00:03:01] But we are excited to have you on as the new contributing columnist to the Star Tribune. Talk to us a little bit about how this came to be and what you hope to accomplish through this new venture. Well, first, Becky and Michael, thanks for having me on. Good to see you guys again. And I can't believe it's been 100 episodes since you had me on last, so that's good. I know. No, the Star Tribune had reached out to me and just asked me if I would be interested in sharing some thoughts.

[00:03:27] And after having some conversations about creative control and content and stuff like that, I figured that it would be a good opportunity just to share my opinions on things. And it's not limited to just politics or public policy. There's certainly a lot of things going on in the world. And it just gives me an opportunity to expand and share ideas with people and foster dialogue.

[00:03:49] And at the end of the day, if one person learns something or maybe if I learn something from people responding to the comments and dialogue, then it's a good thing. So someone just started this week, and I look forward to be doing a couple times a month in the year ahead. Fantastic. I think I don't want to speak for both of us, but I think I could probably speak for both of us in saying you are a voice that we like to have elevated.

[00:04:16] And so this is one, you know, bringing some common sense, you know, sanity. And just your first column here, Minnesota, I love you, but you've gone astray. I'm not giving up on my beloved state, but you've got to do better. I love the way you kind of you bring the humor in. It's simplified but relatable and approachable and really kind of just boils this whole mess we're in down to writing this kind of love-hate letter to Minnesota.

[00:04:43] So walk us through when you sat down to write your first one and how you came up with this. Well, you said it best is that I do think that just a standard column lecturing people is not going to really move any thoughts or shape people's motivations. It's just a good idea to put it in a different form, a little bit of, you know, a humorous form, like almost a love letter. I like to think of it as someone I care about. And I love Minnesota. I've lived here my whole life.

[00:05:09] I've never lived anywhere else, and I'll always love Minnesota. But I think to those who subscribe and have been blinded by the partisanship of the far left and the far right, we all have to do a better job of opening our eyes to what's been happening in Minnesota the last 10 to 15 years. And so this is just a humor, using an analogy to a relationship to try to make comparisons. So one of the things I put in there was that, you know, I don't like who your friends are. Your friends are a bad influence on you.

[00:05:39] And Minnesota's policies have increasingly been shaped by the Californias, Illinois, and New Yorks of the world. And more often than not, I think the vast majority of Minnesotans would say we do not want to have the public policy outcomes of those sorts of states. Another comparison I made is just to spending, is that you spend too much money, Minnesota.

[00:06:02] And Minnesota government certainly does spend too much money when the 23-24 DFL trifecta increased our state's general fund spending from about $50 billion to about over $70 billion. That's a lot of money for a state of only 5.5 million people. And then the third point I made is just one of general tone, and that is that you've let yourself go. Like, you're not the person you used to be. It's time to get back in the gym.

[00:06:28] It's time to start eating better, make some good habits, and be a better version of yourself. And that's collectively for all of us in the state of Minnesota. So I thought it was a, you know, the intent of it was to have a humorful way of getting people to pay attention and recognize that Minnesota does, in fact, need to do better. And more importantly, the residents of Minnesota deserve better than they're getting from their government right now. I thought it was great. I thought it was a great way to approach the discussion.

[00:06:55] I thought it was a very productive way in which to frame up how Minnesota is in need of taking care of itself and very thoughtful. And also, I want to echo what Becky said. We absolutely want to elevate your voice, and I'm very, very excited to read more of your columns. But this one, I think you just hit out of the park, both in message, but in how you structure it. Well, thanks. And it's, again, don't say that now. Wait till the next column.

[00:07:21] Maybe it'll be why Michael Broadcorp sucks and he shouldn't be on, have a podcast. Maybe that's going to be the second. It's not going to be the second column. That would be a very popular column. I think that would work. It would not. Yes. That would be a very popular column. No, but I do want to have some fun with it. And I still, you know, sometimes I make the mistake of projecting skepticism. Underneath that skepticism, despite 20 years in the legislature, there really is, I really

[00:07:51] am an idealist. And I still think that people want to learn and they still want things to get better. But there is a defect and a growing defect in our culture right now. And that is that people just want to fight. Like, even when you agree with them, there's just people who just, they're addicted to the dopamine hit of conflict and social media is feeding that. Now, I feel like at some point that fever is going to break and we're going to return

[00:08:17] to normal or some form of normal because the current pathway is unsustainable. But yeah, anything, it doesn't mean we don't have differences and we don't have spirited dialogue about things. But boy, oh boy, we're certainly going the wrong way in our state right now. I always tend to look at election cycles and bienniums at the legislature kind of like a pendulum. You know, we often swing and we've been noticing that we swing further left and further right.

[00:08:43] And I think there is so many folks, there are so many folks in that middle and wanting to be involved, but also not wanting to stick their heads out to be involved in what is going on on the far right and the far left. And I think that's one thing I love about this is you don't even, you're not hitting, saying Republicans and Democrats, you're not talking about the partisanship. You're just laying it out in a very, this is the situation. I mean, you're talking about criticizing the role models of New York and California.

[00:09:12] And then I love the line, when you used to hang out with Wisconsin, South Dakota and Iowa. I'm not saying they're perfect, but at least they know how to respect the decent, practical, hardworking people that live there. And I think that like in its simplest terms boils down to like what I would like politics to get back to and what so many folks, even the moderate Democrats and the moderate Republicans and that true independence. But like, I would like to think that's what the true people just want to get back to feeling

[00:09:39] respected by our government and being, you know, partners with it and not all this partisan mudslinging. And then even when you kind of do go into the spending issue, I think, again, your approach, I'm sorry, I'm just going to be quoting your piece back to you throughout this. But you talk about you burning through money like you just won the lottery, except you didn't. You just took it out of my wallet and then go into somehow you find the money to pay for waste and fraud. Then ask me to pay more to cover the essentials. I'm not saying don't spend.

[00:10:07] I'm saying spend like someone who has to earn it because you do. We do. And again, I just think it's such an approachable way to look at taxes and spending. I think that so often, you know, Democrats get into spend, spend, spend tax because we want to spend. And Republicans are like, we can't do either of that when we have things we need to pay for, but the government should do it, be doing it better. So talk to us as a former legislature, legislator. Now you're walking through kind of the fraud that obviously went on while you were, you know,

[00:10:38] there was conversations about this while you were at the legislature. But in particular, the last two years, it's really boiled over. So talk to us a little bit about that and how we need to get our government back on track here. Well, first, thanks for the compliments. And I am susceptible to flattery. So by all means, I appreciate that. No, I mean, I think it's important for everyone in Minnesota to understand this fraud stuff. It's been going on for over a dozen years. And we all knew about it.

[00:11:07] Some of us were screaming louder than others. Some of us were. But I mean, there were public, there were committee hearings on this. There were press reports. We all knew this was going on. And at the end of the day, the explosion took place when U.S. Attorney Dick Lugar, U.S. Attorney Lugar, he labeled this as the largest COVID fraud in the nation, Biden appointee. Right.

[00:11:32] And so going into the 22 election cycle, we had had emergency powers in our state extended for over a year. We had had a failed response to the largest riots in Minnesota history. And we had an explosion of fraud that took place. And the response of Minnesota voters was to put the Democrats in total control of Minnesota. So this idea, like, of course, we want to blame the fraudsters. You want to blame the criminals. We want to blame the politicians who ignored it.

[00:12:00] But part of this, a huge part of this responsibility, it's at the feet of Minnesota voters. You voted. You rewarded this. What the hell did you think was going to happen? Right. So when you go out and you have less accountability, whether it's in the classroom, on the streets or in elected office, you're going to get poor public policy results. Going forward, you know, whatever solutions we're going to have, it's important for Minnesotans to kind of sift through the rebel of this government ethics car fire that took place

[00:12:30] and find out what happened. And the root cause of a lot of these problems is that Minnesota's strategic strength, our number one advantage used to be that in Minnesota, we did a better job of cooperating and compromising. We rode the boat in the same direction. And whether that's a team, a neighborhood or a family, when everyone is working towards the same objective, you're going to get a better result. And that's the way Minnesota used to be.

[00:12:55] Now, fast forward, as the nation became more polarized and more extreme, that polarization and that fragmentation of politics, it did more damage in Minnesota than any other state because it used to be our strategic advantage. And now we've just become like everybody else. So if you want to unwind these bad public policy results, whether it's declining education scores, the fact that our economy in Minnesota is growing more slowly than a majority of states

[00:13:25] and slower than the nation. If you're seeing the lack of investment and economic opportunity and the loss of human capital out of our state. If you want to change those things around, you have to fix that problem and you have to change the culture in Minnesota. Now, it's not easy. You can't put a tack on it and say where it's been affected, but you need leaders who are going to work together and bridge these gaps. It doesn't mean they don't fight. Of course they fight. You have passionate disagreements, but there has to be a focus on getting results as opposed

[00:13:54] to a focus of energizing the base so that 52% of the state can tell the other 48% what to do. That just ain't going to work for us. Behind me is the Time Magazine with Wendy Anderson on the cover that says the good life in Minnesota and his iconic picture from the 70s. How do we get back there? The first thing is we need divided government. And right now we have benefited the last two years from having divided government.

[00:14:24] Yes, it gets messy. Yes, they fight. But when proposals advanced only because there's consensus, that is a good thing. You combine that with solid leadership. That's the policy prescription. If there's one thing that people take away from this conversation, it's the following point. There are record numbers of crazy people in both political parties right now. You cannot trust either the Republican nor the DFL party to have all the levers of government at their disposal.

[00:14:53] Because if they do, they're going to get monopolized by the extremists, whether it's the DSA wing of the Democratic Party or it's the mega wing of the Republican Party. You need divided government to get Minnesota out of the ditch and to get Minnesota moving forward because it appeals to our strengths and our natural advantages of marginalizing the extremes, the fringes, and instead doing smart things. I'll give you just one simple example. It's very easy to understand.

[00:15:20] So Minnesota has this new paid family leave program that's been rolling out. And I have opinions about what the role of government should be in that, but putting it aside, it's in law. It's running right now. Can't we all agree that if you're going to get paid family leave, you should be required to have a job? Can't we just all, in terms of making the program sustainable, that if you're going to be taking leave, you should be taking leave from something? And it's so and so outrageous that people go, that can't be true.

[00:15:50] Well, it 100% is true. You do not have to have a job to take Minnesota's paid family leave program. As long as you are working three, six or nine months ago, you can take paid leave. That's an unsustainable program that encourages waste. It increases spending unnecessarily, reduces our productivity. That's the sort of common sense stuff that you can do with divided government where we get together and are focused on results as opposed to this foolish sort of fringy politics

[00:16:19] that's just looking to get the next tweet with the most likes on social media. With that, do you think, I mean, it's kind of like a cyclical issue, right, where we have these policies that people are able to take advantage of, but then we don't want to do away with them because we know there are some good systems out there, some good assistance for folks needing the help at times. So is it truly, do you think that simple that if we continue to have a closely divided government like this?

[00:16:49] I mean, we saw a great end of session deal with lots of stuff, lots of compromise for both sides. Is that enough? Or are people just going to find the next hole to exploit and it's just the issue with government as a whole? Well, I mean, there needs to be an era of accountability and there needs to be a transformation of government systems. Remember that Minnesota's programs historically, not every, but the vast majority of our programs have been built on the honor system.

[00:17:18] I just don't think people realize that, that when people, when you go to your government and you ask for assistance, we basically assume you need the help. Or if you're offering to request funding to help other people, we have generally in the past just trusted you and issued the honor system. Those programs need to change, right? Whether we like it or not, Minnesota is not as, it's not as much a high trust society as it used to be.

[00:17:44] There's various reasons for that, but that requires good leadership. One of my favorite sayings I tell people is that there are few things in life more expensive than poor leadership. And certainly we've seen the case of that in Minnesota. And you can, there are plenty of progressive governors who are good leaders and there are plenty of conservative governors who are good leaders, but putting aside the progressive conservative label, we just have not had good leadership in the state of Minnesota at

[00:18:13] the governor level for the last 15 years. It doesn't mean they're horrible human beings or bad people. We just have not had good leadership. And you've seen the development of an autonomous bureaucracy that's taking action on its own, independent of law with less accountability. And you saw people exploit the bureaucracy either through incompetence or in some cases, willful neglect. And we'll, we'll see where that conversation goes this year with, um, with the Department

[00:18:42] of Justice, uh, involvement in that. But it's very clear that the consequences of polarization merged with poor leadership. Those are the biggest things that are impacted. So to answer your question, what we need is we need divided governments, their shared power. So more Minnesotans are involved in the decision-making. And on top of that, we need better leadership. And I will say this, I am confident that next year, Minnesota will have improved leadership in the governor's office. It's not an attack on Tim Walls. It's not meant to be.

[00:19:11] I just think that, I think the most, the two likely choices we're going to see are Senator Klobuchar and Speaker Damath. I'm a huge Lisa Damath fan. I've seen how she operated at the legislature and in real situations where she changed the conversation and brought leadership forward. Also, um, Senator Klobuchar has a track record. She's in the last 30 years, she is the most conservative Democrat to get elected statewide. But in order to support those leaders and let them execute their leadership, they need to

[00:19:40] have divided government. They need to have a broad array of constituency groups represented at the legislature. Because if you have single party rule, either one of those individuals, whether it was Lisa Damath or Amy Klobuchar, if you straddle them with single party rule, they can do many things. They can't put a bill on their desk. And you're going to see that you're going to see maybe a more functional state government, but you're just going to see a lot of partisan warfare if they have single party rule.

[00:20:09] How do you couple walk me through as, you know, someone who served as a Republican state rep and, you know, certainly has done your role talking to Republican voters? How do we couple or even just as a Minnesotan as a whole? My brain is pinging back and forth of all of these different places when it comes to business permits or building things and different all the red tape and regulation that comes from

[00:20:37] different aspects of government that we're seeing just not implemented here in some of these, you know, public assistants or different organizations that have been rampant with fraud. How do we kind of couple one, why that may be of an honor system over here and a million weeks, months, years of red tape over here with also being a Republican who very much myself often pitches reducing some of that?

[00:21:04] We know, I know it's not apples to apples here, but just kind of chat with me a little bit about walking through that and how we explain that to voters of more red tape and regulation can sometimes be good. Part of this is that you have to have an understanding of all these systems, they work for the people. And so the culture of state government needs to change. And the only way that changes is from the top.

[00:21:31] A new governor, whether you like her or dislike her has the ability to shape culture and enforce accountability from the commissioners all the way down. And forget streamlining permitting. Can we just get decisions on some of this stuff? Let me give you a, this again, anecdotes are good examples of this. The new range, my, the new range mine in Northeastern Minnesota, that copper nickel mining. That's been in permitting for two decades.

[00:21:59] What the hell was going on? Like this takes something where only a governor can step in and say, listen, we are going to resolve this issue by this specific time. And here's how we're going to do it. You don't need a change in law. You don't need to spend any more money. You just need more effective leadership so that we can move Minnesota to the front of the pipeline when it comes to things like copper and nickel that are essential to that. We're talking very, just very rudimentary basic things that can be solved by more effective leadership.

[00:22:28] Again, you don't need new laws. You don't need more state employees. You don't need to spend more money. You need better leadership and a higher prioritization of staff time than the state of Minnesota. So that's, that's one example. A second example, look at the Tamarack mine in Northern Minnesota. For those that don't know, the Tamarack mines in Aiken County, there is a huge deposit of nickel there and nickel is what is needed for stainless steel.

[00:22:53] It's what's needed for energy, electric vehicles, for batteries, whether it's a Tesla or otherwise, you need that material for these things. There's one nickel mine operating in the entire United States of America. It's in Northern Michigan and they're about to run out. Within two years, that mine's going to be closed. All of our nickel is going to be sourced from other countries. That's bad news for the country. And so the Biden administration wisely said, okay, we need to have more of these materials supplied in the United States.

[00:23:23] So we're less dependent on other nations. And here's the sad part. That mine up in Aiken, their proposal right now is to dig up that mine, put the material on rail cars. I shit you not, I'm not making this up. Put it on rail cars and have the trains ship it to North Dakota, where it will be processed and put into high value nickel and value. That's where the value added will come from.

[00:23:49] So in addition to increasing pollution by shipping Minnesota, literally the rocks of Minnesota on rail cars, all the economic benefit is going to be in North Dakota. And the turbocharged stupidity aspect of this, the federal government is giving them over a hundred million dollars to do it. But the Biden administration took a look at Minnesota and said, yeah, you're right. You're never going to get this permitted in Minnesota. So they're just going to dig up Minnesota, put it on rail cars, ship it out to Western Minnesota.

[00:24:18] Again, that is something, it does not require a change in law. We do not need to be hiring more employees. We need new leadership in the state that will stand up and say, listen, we're going to do this safely and soundly. We've got, there's bipartisan support to do this at the federal level. It's good for the nation. We're going to do it in a way that creates jobs and economic activity, moves Minnesota to the front of the supply chain. So we don't have to tax the snot out of everyone.

[00:24:45] We can have that production create secondary and tertiary benefits in Minnesota and have that nickel processing take place in Minnesota in a responsible way that protects our water. Again, no new laws, no new money needs to be spent. You just need better leadership. Here's a third example of supply. And I would talk about this forever. Southwestern Minnesota, there's a jet fuel, diesel and gasoline pipeline that's been in permitting for four years.

[00:25:12] All they're doing is rerouting the pipeline through an existing national park. That's it. Four years to make a decision on that. Because of that, you're not able to use the Marshall fuel depot for all these gas tankers to fill up. They're driving to farther away stations. This is where the gas tankers, you know, they fill up gasoline, bring it back to the gas stations that people use. Because of that, they're paying 10 to 25 cents a gallon higher and they're increasing pollution. This is dumb. There's no reason to be doing this.

[00:25:42] And again, if we have better leadership, we don't have to spend any money. The Public Utilities Commission needs to move on it. That's the sort of stuff that needs to happen as you do that, as you demonstrate movement, you clear the pipes out and get things done. It helps slowly build trust and confidence in the private sector economy to make additional investments in our state and to show that we're leading. And all it takes is better leadership. That's it. Longer answer than you probably wanted to hear, but you put a quarter in me, this is what you're going to get.

[00:26:12] It's a great answer. Will it happen? And what is it going to take to get there? I mean, you just laid out a very, very thoughtful and yet precise leadership approach. What was the response to your column? And do you think we can get there? Because I think that you're, I will tell you, your column's got a lot of people talking. Well, I mean, the first thing I would say is that, again, don't mean to repeat myself, but this is on Minnesotans right now.

[00:26:41] This is up to the voters. The idea that somehow it's a Republican Party problem or a Democratic Party problem, these elected officials don't just fall out of the sky. You vote for them. Yeah, Becky. Okay. So this year we have a fascinating dynamic in the August primary. So as you know, in the Republican Party, almost always the endorsed candidates wins.

[00:27:04] But this time we're seeing in both the U.S. Senate and the governor's race, a three-way competition where it's mega slash crazy as one candidate, an endorsed candidate, and then your traditional independent Republican conservative perspective reflected in both of those three races. And it's crucial that Minnesotans show up and vote.

[00:27:30] Now, my opinion is the way you do that is you vote for Michelle Tafoya and Lisa Damath to advance to the general election. That gives you the best chance to have divided government. It represents the most competent and experienced wing of the Republican Party, and it marginalizes the extremes. On the DFL side, they're having this fight between the DSA, the more redistribute, the more Marxist wing of the left, and then traditional progressives.

[00:27:57] And this is the Peggy Flanagan versus Angie Craig dynamic. And I really hope that what we see coming out of the general election, because there's only token opposition to Senator Klobuchar, is that the governor's race be Klobuchar versus Damath. Then the U.S. Senate race would be Angie Craig versus Michelle Tafoya. That would be what's best for Minnesota. But this is going to be up to the voters in August. And I'm hoping that we see record turnout, sort of the rise of the angry pragmatist.

[00:28:26] Generally, people in Minnesota just don't vote in August. We have super high civic participation rates in general elections. We just don't vote in the August primaries. This is on Minnesotans to show up and make informed good picks. On the other hand, if they start voting for MyPillow guy and they vote for Royce White and they vote for Peggy Flanagan, well, then you're going to get more of what you got. And that is going to be Minnesota stagnating, Minnesota declining, and Minnesota having

[00:28:53] a body politic whose culture more reflects the fringes of the far left and the far right, as opposed to the history of the state, which is focused on doing things really good together. So we'll see what happens. It's going to be the voters that are going to decide that, though. But, you know, there's a lot of momentum and a lot of inertia across the country right now that's going the wrong way. You look down in Texas, Ken Paxson, who is the current attorney general down there, he

[00:29:21] was impeached by over a hundred members of the Texas House of Representatives. That's who Becky's reporting. I don't think she is. I don't think that's true. Ken Paxson is a slimeball. This guy is a crook. And if you don't believe me, talk to his ex-wife or talk to his lawyer who got him out of the impeachment charges, talk to his former employees who reported him for securities fraud. This guy doesn't belong anywhere near the Senate. But it's not just a Republican problem.

[00:29:51] Look what's going on in Maine. You've got this guy running with a Nazi tattoo. The photos are going to come out from this texting stuff. We all know what's going to happen. It was just fundamentally keep these people away from the levers of power. However, again, they're providing a perfect example. Democrats in Maine are promoting someone and Republicans in Texas are promoting someone that are bad for their states and the nation. And Minnesota just has to be smart enough to swim upstream and fight against the extremes and be different.

[00:30:20] Now, are we smart enough to do that? Talk to me in August and we'll see what happens. I'd like to remind you of Kent Brockman's quote from The Simpsons, which is, I've said it before and I'll say it again, democracy simply doesn't work. And so we'll see what happens. Again, Minnesota has a track record. One thing about Minnesotans that people need to understand, this state is different and people do like to think for themselves. It doesn't mean I always agree with it, but we need to restore that and get back to that mindset.

[00:30:49] Remember in 1990, Minnesotans were upset with the direction of the state and in one election threw out both an incumbent DFL governor who was popular and threw out an incumbent Republican senator. In the same election, throw the bums out. And so there is a track record here. We have high expectations for ourselves. We have high expectations for our government. We just need to restore those ingredients that are already there.

[00:31:18] And it's very simple. Elect good people who are better leaders who are going to work together to advance the interests of our state. Right. Divided government with better leadership makes a lot of these problems go away without having to raise people's taxes, without having to take away people's rights or infringe. It's just it's a very easy solution. It's just that the voters have to administer it. Before we go, Representative, and we're so appreciative of your time for coming on, we're going to

[00:31:46] talk about this later this episode and also next week, which is we're coming up to the one year anniversary of the assassination of Speaker Hortman and her husband. You served with Speaker Hortman in the legislature. I just wanted to give you a moment to offer your thoughts and perspectives on what's gone on in the last year and where Minnesotans should be focused as we pass this kind of tragic milestone. Yeah, you know, you know, a lot of people know Melissa Hortman as Speaker of the House or as a representative.

[00:32:15] To me, she was my friend, Melissa. That's how I knew her. And we had we disagreed in a lot of stuff politically and it was totally irrelevant. She was just a really good person who authentically cared about people. And my, you know, putting aside my relationship with her and just what a good person she was. My concern is we're seeing the normalization of political violence. And you're seeing this.

[00:32:42] We just I just gave you an example of what we need in Minnesota leadership. Right. You need people with proven results. People track record of success. People who are going to work, work to bring those together. And my concern is that if we normalize political violence or rationalize it and, you know, what happened to Melissa and Mark, you're going to keep good people out of the process, whether it's business, civic or elected, you know, elected leadership.

[00:33:09] And I would hope I would like to think that the legacy of Melissa Hortman is going to be this was a one off. And we're not going to see the normalization or the acceptance of political violence because all forms of violence are bad. But political violence is especially bad. It's more worse than other forms of violence because primarily it spreads. It gets copied. And we don't need that in Minnesota. We don't need it in our nation.

[00:33:38] And again, on a personal level, I just I just miss my friend Melissa. I'm very thankful. I hope that the Department of Justice worked with the Hortman family on this plea agreement. I'm thankful that this I apologize for my language, but this worthless piece of shit. I'm glad that he's never going to live outside the walls of a prison ever again. He's got consecutive life sentences as part of this plea agreement. So he'll never be released. I'm thankful for that. But I just miss my friend Melissa. That's right. That's what I don't like.

[00:34:10] Representative, we want to thank you so much for joining us today. Your thoughtfulness, your column, your approach, your leadership. We will have you back before we get to another 100 episodes. But we just want to say thank you for coming on, your voice. And we look forward to talking to you again, OK? Thank you, Becky. Thank you, Michael. Thank you so much. Becky, we just finished an interview with former Representative Pat Garofalo, one of my favorite legislators, former legislators,

[00:34:39] and someone that I hope is on a ballot sometime in my lifetime for statewide office or Congress or something else. Your take on the interview. I will start by saying I completely concur with that statement. And, you know, Garofalo is one that I feel like was always kind of like a steady hand, a steady voice in the room. You know, he brings the pragmatic approach to the forefront, I think, in a lot of the ways he looks at things.

[00:35:09] And a partisan approach is always not the first thing I feel like when I—it's pragmatic versus partisanship when it comes to him and how I view him and see him and hear from him. And I think that's something that just as he breaks things down, it really should be that simple. If you're going to get paid from going on leave, you should be going on leave from a job. I mean, that to me was a new aspect that I didn't really know that much about.

[00:35:37] And just the way he breaks this down, the way he writes, I think it is something that hopefully appeals to readers who are like us, who hate kind of this far right, far left, and just the mudslinging that takes up all of the noise, all of the attention, and all of the conversations around politics these days and get us back to, we do things good in this state. We used to do things good in this state.

[00:36:01] Let's get back to great test scores, great business, companies that want to be here, and companies that can continue to grow and thrive because of the policies and families that can grow and thrive. And everything that Minnesota used to be known for but has just been kind of sliding by lately. And so I'm with it. I don't know. I feel like he maybe seems a little bit more optimistic than the skeptic in me is about it.

[00:36:25] But ultimately, whether it's in a year five or 50, I do hope that this sort of side of things is what we get back to. I would agree. And as he was talking, he came across like he came across exactly like the type of Republican who could win statewide. His approach, his demeanor, the way he recited his kind of knowledge of programs all across

[00:36:50] the state and examples, very much a combination of in the weeds details, but also can bring it out to 30,000 feet. He reminded me a lot of Pawlenty who had that ability to talk about in an informed way, the way in which state government really kind of get in the weeds. And that's the thing that frustrates me that I don't think gets rewarded as much, but it should be.

[00:37:14] But I truly believe that representative, former Representative Garofalo represents, I think, a tremendous opportunity for Republicans as a candidate. And wherever he ends up and he's with the Grocers Association now, but I certainly hope that elective office is something that is in his future because I truly believe that his style and brand of leadership is what's needed. His kind of common sense approach is what's needed.

[00:37:43] And we hope I see it on the ballot someday. But I certainly look forward to having him on the podcast in the future because he's a great guest. Absolutely. And we'll be sure to link to his piece and watch the Star Tribune for future pieces. I'm certainly, whether we see him on the ballot or not, grateful that we continue to hear his voice and common sense approach to things. Moving on to an interesting little situation occurring in the last 24 hours, 48 hours here

[00:38:13] in Washington, D.C. So we had on Wednesday, Congressman Tom Emmer, Majority Whip Tom Emmer, tweeted from his GOP majority whip account on X, a picture of Angie Craig giving him a hug in a committee room, and had the message, always great to see my friend and fellow Minnesotan Angie Craig around the halls of Congress. She's one of the few Democrats who's willing to work across the aisle to get important legislation like the Lincoln Riley Act across the finish line.

[00:38:42] We will miss you around here, Angie. Now, I saw this and instantly busted out laughing because, one, I can totally see Tom Emmer having this kind of thought. But obviously, just a total poke in the eye, right? We got a retweet of that from a Star Tribune, D.C. correspondent, Sydney Kashawiegi, and she tweeted, Angie Craig tells me Emmer posted this to boost Peggy Flanagan in the Senate race, and that

[00:39:11] his press team was in the room ready to take a photo of them interacting. This post comes after Craig got into a heated exchange with Emmer early this year on the House floor. Sure. So, what was your initial thought when you saw this? Because I saw it and thought, total poke in the eye, Emmer, Republicans, obviously would rather go up against Peggy Flanagan here, right? Correct. But I will say a couple things. First of all, my first reaction was, oof. I knew what was going on. Yeah.

[00:39:39] And I think Craig, bully for Emmer for doing it and bully for Craig for responding. I mean, that is the type of thing that happens. A couple things I would say. I would like to believe that politics, and if we go back to our interview with Representative Garofalo, former Representative Garofalo, one of the things that he discussed was a better brand of leadership, people that can work in divided government.

[00:40:02] I think that the fact that Angie Craig has shown an ability to work across party lines, I think is a positive. I understand the dynamic of Republicans wanting to run up, that they think it is easier for Republicans to run against Flanagan. But I have to tell you something. I don't, there is not any poll, any measurement of anything that shows that Republicans are in

[00:40:31] any close to winning any statewide election this upcoming cycle. And I understand that the Republicans think that they can win against Flanagan or it'll be a easier race. I simply will say that she's won statewide two times. She's a sitting Lieutenant governor. And so I get it. I understand it. But I think on paper, I believe that Angie Craig would be tougher for Republicans to beat

[00:41:00] than would. But I also think that Flanagan, there is absolutely no reason to think that Flanagan cannot win the Senate race because she's won statewide. And again, there is not this mythical or there's not this mysterious dumpster of cash that's been provided to Republicans in the last couple of weeks since the endorsement process.

[00:41:25] There is no outside group that is going to come in and suddenly make the, these races competitive in, in a lot of these races. And so I understand what Congressman Emmer is doing. It's political gamesmanship. It's a back and forth. I, I totally get the political theater of it and the back and forth, but the reality is, will it change things?

[00:41:51] It might, but again, I think Republicans sometimes have to say like, be careful what you wish for because you just might get it. A well-funded Peggy Flanagan, who was one statewide, maybe marginally easier to beat than a certainly well-funded Congresswoman Craig, who will be, I think, as tough to beat. And so I think it's six in one, half dozen the other, because I think ultimately these elections aren't held in a vacuum.

[00:42:19] And at the end of the day, whether it's Craig or whether it's Flanagan, any Republican candidate who is running against either of those for the United States Senate has to be well-funded, prepared in order to win. Is that fair? I think that is fair. And I think it's a good reminder because while I kind of, you know, saw this and was a little giddy, it's a good reminder. Be careful what you wish for because should Peggy Flanagan win the primary, she still has a really

[00:42:46] good chance of winning the general and then thus becoming the next general or the next U.S. senator from Minnesota. And so it's, you know, an interesting dynamic when you look at it that way. But I just kind of want to break down how this race is playing out a little bit more. You know, that heated exchange that Sydney mentioned in her tweet is something that we've seen a lot in the Angie Craig, pro Angie Craig ads that we've been seeing from a super PAC. She did our Star Tribune that we covered. I regret the Lake Interimally Act.

[00:43:14] So Emmer's inclusion of that is obviously a very direct, you know, attempt at a hit there. And then we have on the other side, the Democratic Lieutenant Governors Association. They retweeted Emmer's tweet by saying, Republican leadership's favorite Minnesota Democrat. They also retweeted a screenshot of an old Craig fundraising email that says, and they said, lots of discussion about Angie Craig and Tom Emmer today.

[00:43:39] Remember when she boasted about voting with him 45% of the time in a fundraising email from years ago? I would assume it was probably from, you know, a CD2 trying to show that more moderate type of candidate. And I think it's just an interesting dynamic when you look at, we talked last week and the weeks before about how Republicans, what they say at the state convention ends up hurting them or through that endorsement process can end up hurting them when it comes to the general election.

[00:44:07] And this is something where I feel like you're seeing something that Craig said when looking at a general election, trying to be that moderate, coming back to hurt her potentially within the Democratic side of the primary. So it's just, you know, interesting watching this all come around. But my question that I'm curious of, I have been surprised by the Democratic LG Association coming and playing so hard in this race.

[00:44:33] They have dedicated $2 million here to Minnesota to supporting Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan, who used to be the chair of this organization. They just, they have this new ad that's kind of gotten some controversy about a deepfake and about, I'm sorry, they were criticizing the new pro or anti-Flanagan piece with the deepfake. And then they have a new ad. And I think I texted you earlier. I just caught part of it earlier this week.

[00:45:00] But the lines of this new targeted ad against Angie Craig talks about Little Liam that we talked about, the five-year-old who was allegedly rounded up by ICE and separated from his father. A school board member from that area is the narrator in this ad and talks about how he's not a criminal. He's five years old. It goes on to say, Craig helped ICE do it. She voted to give ICE the power to abduct and indefinitely detain parents and kids like Liam.

[00:45:27] After she voted to thank them, how could we possibly trust Angie Craig? And so interesting ad, Angie Craig is in favor of abducting children's is a line that is certainly going to catch people's attention. But is this where you what are your thoughts on the LG Association playing and playing so significantly in this race? I see a lot of money on the Democratic side in this race.

[00:45:54] In the Senate race, Craig aligned groups are running it and Flanagan aligned groups are running ads. I will tell you, I see a lot of the Republicans kind of noting this food fight on social media. And I have to tell you that there's no, again, correlation or there's no process of the Democrats having a contested primary of nasty primary and not coming together in the general election.

[00:46:22] And so we'll just go back to the convention conversation. Who is going to leave more united because just because there's in fighting, quote unquote, in the Democratic side, when it comes to a contested primary, Democrats have a history of coming together after the primary coalescing and blowing Republicans away in the general election. And so I understand the gleefulness of Republicans with the food fight in the Senate primary.

[00:46:49] And there's the memes of people getting excited about all the fighting and stuff. But the reality is what Minnesotans are getting right now through ads from these Flanagan aligned groups and these Craig aligned groups is they're getting exposure to these candidates. And there is no ads of any substance out promoting the Republican candidates.

[00:47:14] And so while I get the infighting and I get the back and forth that's going on, what I'm trying to understand is does what I am trying to answer your question is, does it ultimately hurt Craig or Flanagan's chances of winning the general election? And I don't think that it necessarily does. There's truly nothing that I've seen so far. It makes me think that either of these candidates are delivering respectfully really hard blows that they can't recover from.

[00:47:43] And so if there's a very contested, organized primary on the Democratic side and one of those two candidates win, the reality is those candidates are raising more money than the Republicans are. They're more organized than the Republicans are. And they are in a better position to win statewide if it's potentially Flanagan because she's already won. And so, yeah, there is an aggressive fight going on.

[00:48:08] But I have consistently said over the years that is very normal for the Democrats. And so I don't I think where I think the mistake is being made is by these Republican operatives that are somewhat connected to politics being excited and exuberant at this infighting, thinking that that is going to be a trend that's going to carry over to the general election, which I don't think there's any history to think that's going to happen. Your take?

[00:48:37] Yeah, no, I totally I do totally get that. I think already the name ID of Angie Craig and Peggy Flanagan is so much more elevated than Michelle Tafoya or Adam Schwarz. So these just continually get those names out in front of voters. The one thing that I could see being an issue is should Craig be the one that comes out of the endorse or I'm sorry, out of the primary.

[00:49:04] I don't think it's going to make voters switch to the Republican side. But this ICE messaging is something that I could feel people skip that vote or stay home and don't vote in the Senate race if that moves people as much as it appears the Flanagan aligned groups think it does. Because if Democratic voters or swing voters are going to the polls, having bought the Flanagan

[00:49:30] line of attack that Angie Craig is pro ICE, Angie Craig voted for ICE, she would continue to support this sort of thing. I could see that having an impact. Would it be enough to change the ultimate outcome of that race? I don't necessarily know. But I do think that messaging over pretty much anything I've seen in any of the races so far, I feel like the reason they're continuing to double down on it is because it's being effective.

[00:49:55] And I just don't know if that would make Democratic voters or some of those lean left independents not vote for an Angie Craig in the general, not vote at all for the U.S. Senate race or whether they go and vote for others or just stay home. Well, Minnesota has incredibly high voter turnout. And with Senator Klobuchar at the top of the ticket, potentially running for governor, I think

[00:50:24] there's going to be very safe margins. I just I think that there is always I just don't know that we can quantify that number yet. I think that if I think that the current ranking on these Senate races, I think, is safe dem to likely dem. I have a difficult time believing that whoever wins the primary on the Democratic side changes the ranking as to how this race is going to go.

[00:50:52] And so, again, I look at the history of what the Democrats are able to do. There's always an element of of infighting that goes on and they rally together. There may be some drop off there, maybe not. But is it significant? I don't think because one of the things that I think that Flanagan, one of the things that I think that Craig has the ability to do is appeal to like minded appeal to Democrats, independents and Republicans.

[00:51:20] That's why I think Republicans are concerned. The reason why Congressman Emmer did that, our House Majority Web Emmer did that, was because he does not want Republicans to run against Angie Craig. And so if you follow the logic that you're laying out, that if because of the Flanagan ads, if Craig were to win, Craig would then be a weaker candidate. I think we all I think we accept the premise that's been laid out is that she has the better

[00:51:49] statewide potential and the ability because she's done it in the second. She takes the CD2 operation and runs it statewide in the general election. She's going to be very strong because here's the flip side about that Emmer message. I mean, let's be honest. It was cute that he did it. But what happens if Angie Craig wins the primary? Now she has that now has Congressman Emmer helped the Republican candidate that is running

[00:52:16] against Angie Craig because now Angie Craig has that ad out there. She has that same message out there. And so it's a gamble because all of the stuff that's that these Republicans are gleeful about about the sport. What if Angie Craig wins the primary? If she wins the primary, there could be some of this stuff could rebound because again, a lot of the hits that are coming from Republicans like the Emmer post is because Republicans,

[00:52:45] I think fairly accept the premise that Craig would be a stronger candidate to run statewide. And so in this bruising kind of primary season, if Craig survives, guess what? She survived that. And now she can benefit from her positioning, the work that she's done to kind of go against and kind of fill that kind of political maneuvering that needed to be done after Operation Metro surge.

[00:53:15] And she's going to be very formidable in the general election if she's the candidate, as I think Flanagan will be if she gets through. Last question on this. Do you think at all? I came out of the last couple of months, the endorsement, really thinking that endorsement was 100 percent Flanagan and primary was 70 percent Craig. I don't know. I feel like seeing some of this, seeing some of the messaging, seeing what's coming out from

[00:53:41] both sides makes me feel like maybe it is a little bit more of a competitive primary. Do you did you always think that? Do you disagree? Do you agree? I think the primary will be competitive. Okay. And if you listen on previous episodes, I've said that Craig is raising money, spending money and has an operation. I think it's going to be fascinating to see how that plays out.

[00:54:08] But there's no question that Operation Metro surge changed a lot of the political dynamics that are impacting the United States Senate race, the primary on the Democratic side. And so that's the question that I think is we're going to have to still monitor is what's going to be that what's going to be the turnout, what's going to be. I can see a scenario where Flanagan wins. I can also see that Craig wins. I don't know right now where it's at, but I think it's going to be close.

[00:54:35] I think the I think you made a really good, really good catch on noting what the Democratic Lieutenant Governor's Association is spending. They're spending some serious money to try to get Flanagan through. And that's going to be very interesting to see, because again, it's going to be. If you would, if we were doing this a year ago, I don't, I think we, I think I would have been more confident in that if Flanagan gets endorsed, Craig's going to win the primary.

[00:55:05] But I think Operation Metro surge has absolutely flipped that race upside down to where I can see it being, I could see a path for either one of the candidates coming out on top. But I still lean a little bit on Craig's got the operation. Craig's got the money. That's the path. In reality, Angie Craig is taking the Peggy Flanagan path that she used in the primary.

[00:55:30] Last thing I will say before we close out is it is also to be noted that this will be the first big election without Ken Martin at the helm of the DFL. I think that it's probably a relatively well-oiled machine after a decade or so of his service. But we will see. There's different decision makers. There's different people involved. And so that's something I'm excited to come back to as we get to and around the primary

[00:55:57] and see how everything's shaping up. But this race, it's just very fascinating to me to watch all of these different pieces and to see the hits that are coming on. Because there's a lot of, I see these ads a lot already. And Fridley Suburbs here, seen them a lot. But are you seeing Republican ads? No. Okay. And that's kind of the point that I would want to get to is I see kind of the spiking

[00:56:26] of the football on the Republican side. Like, oh, this is, look at the infine that's going on. That happens. Read a history book. It happens a lot of cycles. And so if I was a Republican focused on the Senate race, I would be like, look, there's a lot of money that's being spent in elevating these candidates. It's on TV all the time. I also think for a future episode, whether it's next week or the next few weeks, we should

[00:56:52] break down the pro Craig ad that had a little bit of the deep, the little bit of Flanagan. And I think the rise of AI and how we're going to see that, I think it'll be a good discussion to call a few balls and strikes on those ads because you and I have seen a lot of ads, written a lot of ads, produced a lot of ads. It'd be interesting to debate those and see what our take is on them. Can't wait.

[00:57:18] Well, Becky, I want to thank you and also Representative Garofalo for joining us on this episode of The Breakdown with Broadcomer and Becky. Before you go, show some love for your favorite podcast by leaving rooms of you on Apple Podcasts or on the platform where you're listening. You can also follow us on our website and across all social media platforms at BBBreakPod. The Breakdown with Broadcomer and Becky will be back next week. Thank you for joining us. Bye-bye.